Teresa Martinez has spent the last 30 years working on some of the longest and most well-known trails across the country. Her latest project is to connect the Continental Divide Trail so that thru-hikers can follow the 1,200 mile path from the Mexico/New Mexico border to Montana and Canada without having to walk on city streets and highways.
Teresa Martinez knows all about building trails. She’s spent the last 30 years working on some of the longest and most well-known trails across the country. Her latest project is to connect the Continental Divide Trail so that thru-hikers can follow the 1,200 mile path from the Mexico/New Mexico border to Montana and Canada without having to walk on city streets and highways.
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Shelby Stanger:
Going for a hike is a good time to be alone with your thoughts. You fall into a rhythm clambering over rocks, crossing streams and enjoying the scenery. Recently, I started thinking about how trails come into existence. Who decides where they'll be? Who are the folks that actually go clear and maintain them? Teresa Martinez knows all about building trails. She's spent the last 30 years working on some of the longest and most well-known trails across the country. I'm Shelby Stanger and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living, an REI Co-op Studios production.
Teresa Martinez is the executive director of The Continental Divide Trail Coalition, also known as CDTC. The Continental Divide Trail is 3,100 miles long. It begins on the Mexico/New Mexico border and it runs all the way north through Montana to Canada. But, the trail isn't complete. There are multiple points where there is no trail. Hikers have to walk on city streets and highways until it picks up again. Teresa's goal is to complete the CDT so that hikers can safely travel from one end to the other by foot.
Making a trail is hard work. It means digging into terrain, clearing away trees and shrubs, and creating trail markers. Teresa started her career working on the Appalachian Trail when she was just in college. She loved being outside and building something that brought together hikers from all over the world.
Teresa Martinez, welcome to Wild Ideas Worth Living.
Teresa Martinez:
It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Shelby Stanger:
So, what is your origin story? How did you get excited about trails and building trails?
Teresa Martinez:
Yeah. Who knew? My parents... My mom was a... Her family were migrant farmers up the Ohio Valley. They were not into the outdoors as an adult because they just like, "I did that as a life." Right? My dad was a farmer. They grew up on a farm in southwest Texas. And so, growing up, our world as kids, my brother and I, it wasn't about nature because for my parents it had just sort of a different connotation. I grew up actually in Virginia. My dad worked for the State Department and we traveled all over the world growing up and we ended up in northern Virginia every time in between a deployment.
So, my love of the outdoors really just came from... It was in me and then I went to Virginia Tech, which is in Blacksburg, Virginia. I've always loved hiking. I always loved walking. I always loved being in the outdoors. I loved birds. But, my first weekend in college, there was actually a poster on a poster board that said, "Hey, there is this outing club happening and we maintain a section of the AT. Come to the meeting." And so, myself and a dorm roommate, we went down and went to this meeting and there was all these weird people and they're like, "We're going to go maintain a section of the Appalachian Trail. Come on out." And, all I thought was, I don't know what the AT is, but it's going to be in the mountains. We're going to go hiking. Sure, whatever. Sign us up.
So, we go out and we're... I get handed... We drive an hour and a half with complete strangers in the middle of nowhere in southwest Virginia and we end up at the AT near Laurel Creek and the job is to hike seven miles, clipping and snipping all the vegetation. So, we get handed all the tools and while we're going around, I'm like, "Wait. What's this Appalachian Trail thing again?." And, the trail supervisor says, "Well, if you turn left, you're going to end up in Georgia and if you turn right, you're going to end up in Maine."
And, I remember in that moment, no joke, like in those cartoons where the landscape just goes whoop, my entire worldview shifted and I was like, "Wait. What?." And, I remember, and you can do it for free and all you have to do is walk? And, I get to volunteer and maintain it? Sign me up. I fell in love. Not joke. Like, the longest love story I've ever had in my entire life has been with these long trails because in that moment, I was like, I am a brown woman in the middle of this place and the fact that I could participate in stewardship and I didn't have any skills at that time. I was just a biology major at Virginia Tech. You know? An 18-year-old little young woman out there.
And, from that moment, every weekend I was maintaining a section of the trail. I was helping build the AT that summer and fell in love with getting to meet all these crazy people from all walks of life, driving out in these green forest service vans in the middle of nowhere and creating a trail that didn't exist. And, the skills and the confidence that that gave me inspired me to become president of the [inaudible 00:04:46] Club of Virginia Tech. So, we were responsible for 40 miles of the Appalachian Trail and every weekend was on the AT. Every summer, I was building sections of the Appalachian Trail. I mean, I got to do stuff like... Back then, they let us put dynamite in rocks and blow them up and then we would go back in and build rock walls out of all those rocks. They don't let volunteers do that anymore. But, it was...
Shelby Stanger:
What?
Teresa Martinez:
I mean, just the cool things. We were just tough and just like hardcore people and just... You know, we were just all into it and it just became this thing and it ended up inspiring me to switch majors to wildlife. So, I actually got my degree in fisheries and wildlife. So, along with doing this trail stuff, I was learning about forest ecology and wildlife biology and all the other pieces that go into trails and management.
Shelby Stanger:
So, really quickly, the Appalachian Trail. That was the first I was also exposed to. I went to school at Emory in Atlanta, Georgia, so I was on the southern tip of the Appalachian Trail and I just remember going hiking there with Outdoor Emory, which was an organization that Emory had that brought kids outdoors and there were some people with these weird names coming through and they were so dirty and they had the craziest hair and they had ridiculous names like Rabbit Foot, Magic Unicorn, or... I don't know what they were, but I was like a soccer player and I was like, these chicks are so weird but I can't believe they've been walking every day for a month. And, it blew my mind as well.
Teresa Martinez:
Well, I didn't meet through hikers until I was building trail and then we'd run into through hikers while we were building sections of the trail or wherever our campsites were, and they were these just sort of like rock star people that showed up with these really funky names and these stories to tell and sort of just far-fetched experiences. And, some of them would actually volunteer with us on the trail, so they would show up for weeks on... Especially in the summer crews, on the trail. And so, getting to understand what they were looking for was huge, and the solitude and the wilderness and the community that they were seeking was huge.
You know, my own experience, just loving backpacking... I have several trail names, one of which is Wild Genshin.
Shelby Stanger:
Wild what?
Teresa Martinez:
Genshin, which is a flower and it's one of the species on the AT that in central Virginia particularly where I worked... So, I was the regional rep for central and southwest Virginia for many years. It was one of our... A rare species of plants that we had to go look for one day with a botanist and I just kept finding them everywhere. They were just everywhere and they're like, "What? What is it? Are you like an eagle eye? How can you spot these in the grass?." I'm like, "I don't know. I just am called to them and I just find them." So, that became my trail name.
And, that's how trail names come. They're like these experiences that happen that people happen to experience with you that that's how you get your name. And so, I think it's this really cool space of how you can disconnect from your identity but also connect to maybe a different truth of yourself that I think is really cool about these long trails where you can kind of reimagine who you are so when you finish those experiences, whether it's the entire AT or CDT or whatever, when you come back home you are slightly different. You know, you are a different human.
Shelby Stanger:
All of the through hikers we've had on the show have told us about the transformational powers of these long trails. It's one of the reasons why so many people want to hike them. Teresa has never through hiked one of these thousand mile trails herself, but she's done shorter stretches of them. As someone who has spent so much time on the AT and the CDT and who has met countless through hikers, Teresa understands that pursuing this kind of adventure changes people.
Okay. So, you said something really interesting just a second ago. You were talking about the fact that you could go onto a trail as one person and sort of reimagine yourself the whole way through this 2,700-plus miles of... Whether you're doing the PCT, the AT or the CT. And, you come out someone totally different. That's pretty powerful.
Teresa Martinez:
Yeah. You know, I think what... I don't know if many people know this, but the original idea behind long trails was written by a gentleman named Ben MacKaye who was a landscape architect in the Northeast and he wrote an article in 1914 of all times that described this... He was really concerned with the increasing technology and the increasing modernization of life and that as we increased our access to technology and all these things, we were losing connection to nature and that we were losing connection to the things that really affected us as humans, which is our basic necessities of food, shelter, water and then community.
And, I think when people come out on these long trails in that spirit of what these trails were hoping to accomplish, which is a disconnection from all of the noise in our world, that allows us to strip down into sort of reconnecting to those fundamental things of being human. And, I think every single through hiker I have ever talked to has experienced that in some form or fashion, and even section hikers and people who even just spend a weekend can experience that to some extent, and I think those experiences shape us where we learn to be maybe more vulnerable. We learn to reinvent ourselves and maybe things that we hadn't gotten in touch with, we have the time and space to reconnect to or connect to for the first time.
And, I do think people experience this sort of like, I didn't know I could walk 20 miles every day for three months. I didn't know I could hike up a hill like that. I didn't know I could carry a pack like that. You know, there's all these things that people discover about themselves and really experience life when they're back in normal life a little differently or choose not even to come back to normal life. Maybe they change careers or they reconnect to other things that maybe they didn't do before. But, I think that that's what nature does.
Shelby Stanger:
Ooh. Teresa, I love this. I've interviewed a bunch of through hikers and they say like... A couple of them said to me, "When you hike 20 miles every day and then you look back to your last campsite and you see how far you've come and then you do it again and again, it rewires your brain in a way that like... You realize you're kind of badass." But, all that time in nature also does something else because you are absolutely tuned in with all your senses at all times. So cool that you tasted the power of nature and a trail at such a young age, at age 18. Talk to me real quick about your own experience with nature. I'm sure it's just been healing for you throughout your whole life.
Teresa Martinez:
Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's always my place. Right? I think my experience on the AT, both working and meeting people and having lifelong friends, even if I met them only for an hour to shelter, we may have just had that instant connection because there's also this thing about nature when you connect to people and places. Sometimes, it's just like cosmic, like you're supposed to meet. Right? And, for me, nature has always been that place. It's where I go to when I'm stressed. It's where I go to when I need to ground. It's where I go to when I'm happy. It's where I go to to deepen relationships with people. It's where I go to heal. I lost both my parents in 2011, 34 days apart, both due to cancer, and because of the intensity of that experience, it just was like my mom passed away and then my dad passed away and we were just like, oh my God. The walking numb. You know?
When I finally got back to Colorado... They were still in Virginia when they passed away and my brother and I both were there with them as... We held their hands as they passed away at home, that kind of thing. When I came back to Colorado... I was living in Colorado at the time. I went on the AT. Or, the AT. The CDT right near Berthoud Pass and I remember that was the first place I reconnected to them, like I felt them for the first time after they had left and I think that's both the beauty and the healing part of it, is just knowing they're still there in nature and you can feel them. Sorry. I'm getting emotional.
And so, I think nature is always that place and I think trails... I think that's probably why I have spent 35 years in the career building these trails and supporting their management and stewardship and all these things, is that I want everybody to have that experience.
Shelby Stanger:
When we come back, Teresa talks about connecting all 3,100 miles of the Continental Divide Trail and dedicating her career to making trails accessible, safe and long-lasting.
Teresa Martinez told me that she will probably never through hike something like the Appalachian Trail or Continental Divide Trail. But, that hasn't stopped her from devoting her life to them. With three decades of experience on the AT and CDT, Teresa knows the difficulty of breaking and maintaining trails. She founded The Continental Divide Trail Coalition 10 years ago and she now serves as executive director.
It's incredible that you've made it your life's work to work on trails. You worked on the Appalachian Trail. That's where you got your start. And, now you're the executive director and co-founder of The Continental Divide Trail Coalition. Can you really quickly just tell us what is the Continental Divide Trail Coalition, what's your mission and how you got involved with it?
Teresa Martinez:
Yeah. So, the Continental Divide Trail, first of all, is a 3,100 long mile trail that spans from Mexico to Canada, as we talked, and it follows along the major watershed of the North American continent. And so, all of these trails were created by Congress, so it's a Congression designated trail and they all have partner organizations that work side by side with the federal agencies to support the cooperative stewardship of them. And so, the AT has The Appalachian Trail Conservancy. The Pacific Crest Trail has The Pacific Crest Trail Association. And, the CDT has The Continental Divide Trail Coalition now.
And, The Continental Divide Trail Coalition was formed in 2012, so we're actually in our 10th year of anniversary, which is amazing to me, and it was formed because a previous organization, The Continental Divide Trail Alliance, unfortunately closed its doors and I actually was working at CDTA along with some of my co-founders of CDTC. When it closed its doors, those of us in particular on staff were like, "We can't let this fall on our watch." So, I always tell people in my life list of experiences, building a nonprofit or becoming executive director was never on that list, ever. Yet, here we are 10 years later. So, who knew? Who knows? Right? How life will happen.
Shelby Stanger:
Well, it was a wild idea.
Teresa Martinez:
It was completely. Who knew? But, I think even with the AT and my experience at ATC, the beauty of this public-private partnership that happens is that it really is this beautiful relationship between federal agencies, state agencies, in some case tribal organizations, and these partner organizations where an expression of what I think, which is going to be a weird thing to say in this day and age, that a true feeling of democracy is where there is this voluntary association on behalf of these public lands that are such an important part of our legacy and history as a country and the stewardship piece, this innate connection to land that allows us to think about how can we steward these places for future generations and build those relationships.
And, I think now that that's also evolving these days to how do we also include Indigenous voices in that space and really decolonize these things. We have power. Right? We're empowered to do something and I think these trails allow for that opportunity to influence the long term existence of these resources in a way that maybe doesn't happen in other places. I mean, that was what I loved about the AT experience, is that even at 18 years old, without a college degree at the time and just as a volunteer, I was contributing to the Appalachian Trail and impacting people's lives I may never meet. And, that was huge.
Shelby Stanger:
Yeah. That's really cool to think about. The CDTC in particular... What's your mission? Because, from my understanding, the Appalachian Trail is totally connected and so is the Pacific Crest Trail. I mean, obviously sometimes it gets snowed in on parts. But, the Continental Divide Trail. How much of it is not connected?
Teresa Martinez:
194 miles of the 3,100.
Shelby Stanger:
That's amazing. So, that's not too much and it's in different sections. So, it's not one stretch of 194 miles. It's like three or four different sections?
Teresa Martinez:
Correct. We have... New Mexico has some road walks, Colorado has a road walk and Montana has a big road walk.
Shelby Stanger:
So, what does it take to connect it?
Teresa Martinez:
Oh. Way more.
Shelby Stanger:
[inaudible 00:18:35] in this podcast? Okay.
Teresa Martinez:
[inaudible 00:18:38]
Shelby Stanger:
Can you give me a sentence of what it takes?
Teresa Martinez:
It takes building community and engaging local decision makers and getting the momentum to encourage federal decision makers to help us get the funding to work with local land owners or other kinds of folks to get the lands we need to complete the trail or find ways to do that in a way that is sustainable for those communities. But, it is a lot of relationship building. I wish I could say that it's like a silver bullet. We just need money. It's not. It's about building relationships, but it also requires our federal agency partners and decision makers to hear from local citizens saying that's something they want. So, it's kind of an ongoing circular thing.
Shelby Stanger:
This might sound like a naïve question, but what do people do now when they get to those areas and there is no trail?
Teresa Martinez:
They walk highways.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay.
Teresa Martinez:
Or, they walk roads where they're exposed to high speed traffic and potential safety hazards.
Shelby Stanger:
I know on the Appalachian Trail, there is like these like huts or... What do you call them? Where people stay.
Teresa Martinez:
Shelters. Shelters.
Shelby Stanger:
They're shelters.
Teresa Martinez:
Mm-hmm.
Shelby Stanger:
There is sign posts. There's the actual trail itself. There's guide markers. What goes into building these trails, specifically the Continental Divide Trail?
Teresa Martinez:
Well, I think... It's funny because I think a lot of times, people go like, "God, this trail just showed up." It's like, no, it didn't just show up. I promise you. It did not just show up.
Shelby Stanger:
Yeah. How does that happen?
Teresa Martinez:
But, if you do it right, it feels like it and I think that's always our goal. So, trails start with very early on, you know... Like, for example, in these trail locations where we're not complete, we are scouting routes. Right? So, we're out in the woods, walking off trail, just looking for that perfect location that meets all the requirements we need both from an environmental policy piece. There has to be these clearances, both archeological and all the things, cultural pieces we want to make sure we're being sensitive to, and then just biologic... Or, just physical ones where we want to make sure we're not putting the trail in a location that would create erosion or drainage.
So, once all that stuff is done, there's all these formal federal decisions, in our case, decisions through federal agencies to identify that location. Once that happens, which can take a year sometimes or sometimes longer, then we actually go out and start really getting to the micro scale of building the trail, which is putting in little pin flags and then we bring in either volunteer crews or youth corps or professional crews, depending... Or, sometimes even machinery, depending on the location. And, then we just basically start building.
So, this is the other thing. People think, well, it's such a light thing. No. Building a trail is really heavy construction, so it includes clearing vegetation, so trees, veg... You know, small vegetation and big vegetation, depending on the location. And, then you start digging and you start moving all the dirt and that can take... You know, some places like along the Continental Divide Trail where we've had to build the trail through an avalanche zone, it can take us a whole week to go 400 feet and in other places it can take us a week. You can build a mile, just depending on how deep the soil is and what the local conditions are.
So, then once the trail is built, that's not the end of the story. That's the beginning of the story. It's the ongoing maintenance and connection to that trail that allows the trail to stay there forever by encouraging volunteer stewardship of the ongoing maintenance. If blowdowns happen, those trees get cleared. If signs get lost, they get replaced. So, it stays safe. And, the point behind a trail is that ideally it'd be great if we could just all walk across the country and never worry about it and if we do our jobs right, those trails are there forever and sustainable and people have wonderfully safe experiences. That's our goal.
And so, I will say that while it takes a lot, when you build a trail, you start with a blank canvas and at the end of the day you can turn around and be like, "Oh my gosh. We just built a trail." There is something that exists that never was there before.
Shelby Stanger:
Can you make? I mean, you've made a living building trails.
Teresa Martinez:
[inaudible 00:22:49]
Shelby Stanger:
Is that easy to do or is that like...? You know, there's this perception that I have that it's not easy to make a living. But, maybe it is. I don't know.
Teresa Martinez:
It's easier than it used to be.
Shelby Stanger:
Great. Awesome. That's good to hear.
Teresa Martinez:
So, that's great. You know, I always tell people because I still go back to Virginia Tech and I do these seminars with young students and they always are like, "How did you end up here?." And, I tell people all the time, again, my life list. I didn't know what I was doing, but I followed my heart and I used my head and I think that's true in anything you do, to try to be smart but also take advantage of opportunities that maybe aren't on the beaten path, so to speak.
But, I think... You know, there are so many more opportunities. There are counties and cities and towns and states that have outdoor recreation focuses and departments that have trail planners. And so, there's all different ways you can do it. The nonprofit space is probably not the most lucrative space. There's also professional trail building and you can get into these companies. It depends on what you want to do. For me, I've always believed in... And, that's how CDTC was formed, in this grassroots space of giving all of us a voice and an opportunity to connect to the places we love in our back and front yards.
And, building trails are really... I see them in this job, in this work, as building opportunities to build connections and community, both figuratively and physically, and I think if you have that spirit in you, there's opportunities for you to find those places where you could do that work.
Shelby Stanger:
How used are trails now, these big ones, the AT, the PCT, the CDT? Obviously, the movie Wild spurred this whole generation to start hiking the PCT. Did that have a trickle effect to the CDT and the Appalachian Trail as well?
Teresa Martinez:
I think Wild helped us break down the stereotype of who was on these long trails. You talked earlier on about these really crazy people with like... They were [inaudible 00:24:47] sort of unshowered and all this stuff, and maybe brought it down to like, "Oh, wait. I could do that. Wait. I don't need to know how to do wilderness survival to go hike on a trail like this." So, I think that was great. I think it also made us all get better at providing better information.
I think the pandemic changed a lot. We couldn't do a lot of things indoors, so a lot of first timers went out to the outdoors and we definitely have seen an increase on the CDT. I think the AT and PCT and all the trails across the country have seen an increase in use and I think it's a beautiful thing. I think we're starting to break down that understanding that they really are for everyone and how to encourage and continue to invite and welcome and create welcoming environments where everybody from all walks of life and all backgrounds and everything else, where maybe that hadn't been done before. We hadn't even talked about it before.
So, we're seeing more people get excited and inspired and discover that, like me, you do belong and you can belong and I think the more families that come out, even if it's just for 100 yards on a trail or a picnic, I think that's beautiful and we should... We should value that as much as we value somebody who hikes from Mexico to Canada on the CDT, that people just do come out and just get to experience the Continental Divide as a landscape, is just... The power of that is amazing.
Shelby Stanger:
You know, I think you bring up a really good point. I was really naïve when I first... I didn't even understand the Pacific Crest Trail was outside my door and I didn't know you could just go walk like a little piece of it and enjoy it. I thought you just like had to do the whole thing.
Teresa Martinez:
Mm-hmm.
Shelby Stanger:
And so, it was always really intimidating to me when I was younger. Are you ever worried that these trails are ever going to get too crowded? Or, is that something that we shouldn't even care about?
Teresa Martinez:
Yes and no.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay.
Teresa Martinez:
I think... You know, I think... As somebody who's been doing this a long time, I think it's a beautiful thing that more people use them and national trails, national scenic trails, were created to increase outdoor recreation for the American public or the public in general. So, that's the goal. Right? Is, we have more opportunities. I think what we're discovering is we need more and so that's where the advocacy comes in for people who might be listening to this podcast. How can you connect to trails or get trails in your local community as much as how can we get trails in big places like the Continental Divide? And, then, how do we build those connections?
I think the challenge is that we're not growing more land. The land is kind of finite and so we need to have decision makers who are willing to give the funds to federal, state and local agencies to do what they can so we have sustainable trails but that we have more of them. We've always migrated as humans and trails are a great way to do that in a way that is sustainable and protects the environments that we also want to experience.
And so, I just say more trails, more people on trails, and the most important part is if you use a trail, how can you give back to that trail and its stewardship because it's not just, again, a taking. It's got... It can't be a commodification. It has to be a give back as well.
Shelby Stanger:
We all benefit so much from getting outside. It's good for our bodies, for our minds, and for our spirits. But, epic hikes and quiet paths have to be built and maintained. People like Teresa are taking care of the places we love to adventure and they're making even more trails for us to get out and explore. Teresa Martinez, thank you so much for coming on the show. I learned a ton from you. I'm really curious to learn more about getting involved in the trails in my own area. If you want to get involved in maintaining trails near you, there are plenty of opportunities to help. You can learn more about Teresa's work at continentaldividetrail.org.
Wild Ideas Worth Living is part of the REI Podcast Network. It's hosted by me, Shelby Stanger, written and edited by Annie Fassler and Sylvia Thomas of Puddle Creative. Our senior producer is Chelsea Davis, who has finally perfected the art of the smores while camping with her family all summer long. And, our associate producer is Jenny Barber. Jenny just got back from a multi-city trip to Austin and Boise, exploring the cities' natural pulls. Our executive producers are Paolo Motola and Joe Crosby.
As always, we love it when you follow the show, when you rate it, and when you write a review wherever you listen. We read every one of your reviews. And, remember, some of the best adventures happen when you follow your wildest ideas.