Rick Stanton is best known for being one of the cave divers to rescue the Thai boy's soccer team in 2018. He wrote a book about his experience which has been adapted into a movie hitting theaters later this year.
In the summer of 2018, many of us were glued to news for updates on the Tham Luang cave rescue. A Thai youth soccer team and their coach were exploring the Tham Luang caves when the monsoon rains came early. The rising water trapped the boys inside a cave. While the rest of the world was watching from afar, cave diver Rick Stanton was diving into the situation head on. His team was able to guide all twelve boys and their coach to safety. No one had ever done a rescue like this before, and suddenly Rick became an international hero.
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Rick Stanton: And he could see the rescue developing. They had Thai Navy SEALs arrive, but of course, no one had any real caving experience, let alone cave diving experience and let alone cave diving rescue experience, all of which we had. And whilst I didn't know him, his name was Vernon, he certainly knew of us, so now exploit. So he gave a note to the minister of the interior to say, "You have one chance at this rescue. You need people with experience." And he gave my name, John's name and Rob's name.
Shelby Stanger: In 2018, an adolescent Thai soccer team and their coach were exploring the Tham Luang caves in Chiang Rai, Thailand. The monsoon rains came early and the rising water trapped the boys inside the cave. While many of us were glued to the news for updates, including myself, Rick Stanton was diving into the situation head on. Rick is a cave diver. He's been exploring underwater passages and tunnels for 40 years. He and his close diving buddies were some of the only people in the world who could save these 13 lives. Despite battling the clock, rising water levels, language barriers and more, they got the boys out alive. I'm Shelby Stanger, and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living.
Shelby Stanger: Since the famous Thai cave rescue, Rick Stanton has been recognized globally for his leadership. He was awarded one of Great Britain's George Medals. He came out with a book called Aquanaut. He also participated in films and documentaries about the mission, including a big Hollywood production that's coming out this Fall. But before the rescue, Rick never expected that his love for caving would bring him into the global limelight. Rick's interest in diving started when he was 18 years old, he saw a documentary called the Underground Eiger about a record breaking cave dive in England. The film introduced Rick to the world of caving and it totally changed his life. Rick Stanton, welcome to Wild Ideas Worth Living.
Rick Stanton: Thank you, Shelby.
Shelby Stanger: You really do exemplify Wild Ideas Worth Living, of all the people I've interviewed. So I'm really excited to talk to you. Last night, I found the movie, the Underground Eiger, and I started watching it and I was like, "Yeah, this movie was made 1979. There's exploration, there's caving, there's some beer drinking and parting."
Rick Stanton: And all of those are what identified themselves to me as something worth pursuing.
Shelby Stanger: Yeah. So caving is such a interesting hobby, but you said that during uni, you got involved with a caving club, which we don't have those here. So maybe you could tell me a little bit about what first lured you in from that movie.
Rick Stanton: Sure. Well, the documentary, it was about some people that specialized in cave diving. So there's dry caving or spelunking as you know it in America, but not everyone that goes dry caving or spelunking goes cave diving. That's one very niche branch of the sport. But here were these guys doing it on actually at that time was a world record level doing long distances. But the thing that resonated with me was they were exploring, this was in North of England, and they were able to go off exploring, which is something that ordinary people just can't do anymore. Most of the world, all the surfaces of the planet earth has been photographed. Even if someone hasn't been there, you can look at it from the comfort of your living room on Google, yet in a cave, you've no idea what's around the next corner.
Rick Stanton: And so the fact that you could explore, that was the main thing that drew me in and the camaraderie and teamwork. I was always interested in diving. I grew up in the 60s. I was watching Jacques Cousteau. I was a good swimmer. I was water confident. So I was... But this gave, being in water a purpose of that and the purpose being exploring.
Shelby Stanger: When Rick saw the Underground Eiger, he was about to take his entrance exams for college. Once he got to university, he found out there was a caving club there. Through that club, Rick started exploring caves with his peers and he quickly fell in love with it. It was the perfect activity for Rick. He could use his analytical brain to problem-solve in the narrow passages and his interest became even more niche as he discovered his passion for underwater caves. Since then, cave diving has become a lifelong pursuit. Rick spends his weekends and almost all of his vacations diving in caves around the world. When he dives, he gears up with a wetsuit, fins and devices like cylinders and regulators. With all this equipment, some of which he builds himself, Rick can breathe under the surface for as long as 10 or 15 hours. For someone who's never done caving or descended into a cave underwater, can you just describe what that's like to us and just the sensory aspect of it?
Rick Stanton: Well, all caves are different, so it'd be hard to pigeonhole them. But the first thing is, of course there's not any artificial light or any light at all. So just to see you need some sort of light with you. So a human eye can pick up one photo in the light. So if there's just a chink in a blackout curtain, you'll see it. But underground, you cannot see a thing. You wouldn't be able to see your hand. You literally wouldn't see anything. So everything you're seeing through whatever torch you're carrying. Well our specialty... British caves are generally small and British cave diving is generally poor visibility and that's something we've become accustomed to. But for example, in America, you've got the caves of Florida or a nearby in Yucatan, Mexico. You've got those caves and they've got visibility in excess of like 20 or 30 meters, 100 feet say, whereas in Britain, you'd be lucky to see even 10 inches, to be honest. I think you need a good spatial awareness.
Shelby Stanger: It's not something I have. Something you've always had.
Rick Stanton: I think so. And of course, then you hone it from experience, but yes, you certainly need to know left from right. And you can navigate by features and also underwater. The amazing thing about being underwater is it's a three-dimensional experience. So if I put you in an unknown building, you know that you are going to be walking or calling or whatever along the floor, and wherever you go will be at floor level. Now imagine that building filled with water and you could literally fly up the stairs or float around the room, up to the ceiling. And so cave diving's more like that. You could be anywhere in the passage as you wish.
Shelby Stanger: You make a lot of your own gear, because it's so niche.
Rick Stanton: Yeah. So we are all about exploring caves and there is some incredible gear out there and you could have one set of gear. In fact, most people do. Most people have one set of gear for all eventualities and they're just going in the caves for fun and that's completely applicable and nothing wrong with that. But we, as I said, like to make things complicated, we like to explore, we like to get to the end of the cave. And to get to the end of any particular caves, especially in Europe, the reason why people haven't been further is there's normally some logistical or technical reason why, it might be too deep or too small or something like that and you have to think of a way to get around it. So therefore you have to modify the equipment to suit that particular cave. So we are very good at that.
Rick Stanton: I designed a rebreather, which is technical diving device, which have been around, they predate the scuba that Jacques Cousteau invented in the Second World War, but I configured it differently, so it was on my side and not on my back. So you could go through low spaces, it's out of necessity. And again, I think that's that free thinking and thinking outside the box, whatever you want to call it and just realizing what you want. We'd rather buy something and modify it but sometimes you can't just do that. You have to literally start from scratch.
Shelby Stanger: Is there anything else that gives you the same sense that being underwater gives you where you're fully that focused, one point focused?
Rick Stanton: Probably not. But underwater you are, especially in a cave, you're essentially deprived because your vision is limited. Even if it was clear, you've only got a tunnel vision with your light and your mask and you're in a different medium. You can't breathe it unless you've got a regulator. So I think that concentrates the mind. So I don't think anything on the surface in air could even equate to that. In my book, I talk about water people. Some people just instinctively would never go diving. Some people can do the courses and become more familiar with it and quite overcome any fears and some people are just natural water people. And certainly all the people are brought in on my team are all natural water people.
Shelby Stanger: What does it take to train to get good at these things? I mean, there's also this element like, well, there's a spatial awareness with skills you need to have and then like to me, I get scared easily of everything even surfing. When I'm held under a wave, that's the only thing that maybe I could relate to. Not panicking is very hard for me. It's natural to want to panic. How do you train yourself not to panic and...
Rick Stanton: Well, I think not panicking is probably the principle thing that you need in cave diving, but you got to be confident in water. Everything happens slowly. So the stop phrases is only two speeds and that's dead slow and stop. So you can always stop what you're doing and think about it and then maybe go back. But also you need some technical abilities like to look, maintain, and manage and think about your equipment, need logistical planning and you need fitness. So obviously to go underground, you have to be fit. So I think it predisposes itself to people that are more calm in nature. If I looked at my school reports for my book, Aquanaut, in there, my form teacher kept saying that I had an unruffled nature and wasn't easily disturbed. That was evident back then to him and maybe that's something I thought of maybe subconsciously realized when I was watching the Underground Eiger that my nature was compatible with that.
Shelby Stanger: It's hard not to panic when you try to breathe with a regulator for the very first time. Biologically, your body thinks that if you breathe under water, you'll drown. Divers have to push through this mental block and learn to relax so they don't burn through their air supply. Rick's ability to stay calm in stressful situations, ended up helping him professionally too. After university, Rick continued to cave dive, but his hobby didn't pay the bills. So he became a firefighter with the West Midlands Fire Service. You were attracted to becoming a fireman. You did the fire service in your country. What made you choose that job?
Rick Stanton: I wouldn't say it was purely for altruistic reasons. I joined the fire service, I was aware of it. My father had been a firefighter during the Second World War, but it was more because there were friends who did it and I saw the benefits as in quite a lot of time off because of the shift work. You form good teams and good bonds with people and again, hopefully have fun and being beneficial to society. So I know there's a huge overlap in the fire service and caving and cave diving. It's often dark, it's dangerous. You are using breathing operators. You're going in and what happened in my cave diving career, you're rescuing people. I wasn't even thinking back then about the other benefit, which is retiring early.
Shelby Stanger: So when you did the Thai rescue, I mean, you were basically retired.
Rick Stanton: Yeah, I was.
Shelby Stanger: Yeah.
Rick Stanton: But I was fit. I was retired. I wasn't a pensionable age, but yeah, in terms of getting the government pension, which we get over here, but certainly I'd been retired from the fire service four years. Yes, and had received a pension those four years.
Shelby Stanger: Can you tell me how you got involved in the Tham Luang rescue in 2018? You were happily retired and then-
Rick Stanton: I was happily retired. I'd gone on a great weekend with about eight people who I'd been university with 40 years previously. And that very weekend was the weekend the boys went in the cave. There was an expert British caver who lived near the cave and he was actually the expert on Tham Luang and he could see the rescue developing. They had the SEALs, Thai Navy SEALs arrive, but of course, no one had any real caving experience, let alone cave diving experience and let alone cave diving rescue experience, all of which we had. And whilst I didn't know him, his name was Vernon, he certainly knew of us. So now exploits. So he gave a note to the Minister of the Interior to say, "You have one chance with this rescue. You need people with experience." And he gave my name, John's name and Rob's name. Rob knew the cave. So that minister, I give full credit to that minister. He had the vision to realize that Vernon was actually speaking sense. And so he called us there and then, and said, "You're coming on a plane tonight."
Shelby Stanger: When we come back, Rick talks about assembling a team of cave divers to rescue the Thai soccer team, how his life has changed since the rescue and his thoughts on going after wild ideas.
Shelby Stanger: By the time Rick was called by the Thai government, he'd heard about the rescue efforts and he even started to prepare. He'd done a handful of major rescues before, and he knew he was up to the task. When Rick and his diving partner, John arrived at the Thai cave, they quickly got to work. This cave system is big.
Shelby Stanger: It's about six and a half miles long with plenty of narrow tunnels, larger caves and boulders. Nobody knew how far into the tunnels the boys were. On their first dive, Rick and John quickly encountered a group of four Thai pump workers who'd also been trapped by the rains. Rick and John shared their regulators with the workers and safely got them out but that experience was an eye opener for everyone involved. First, it gave the Thai government and the American military faith that Rick and John knew what they were doing. Second, it became clear that rescuing anyone without diving experience would be a challenge. Rick described getting the pump workers out as a constant wrestling match.
Shelby Stanger: They were flailing around in panic and nearly drowned the divers. Remember, using a regulator can be an anxiety producing experience if you haven't used one before. It'd be even scarier if you were in a confined space fearing for your life. Once they found the soccer team, Rick and John needed to come up with a plan on how they were going to get them out. The boys were almost a mile deep into the cave. The two men could not rescue them alone. So Rick assembled a team of people, some of his closest friends who were just as knowledgeable and obsessive about cave diving as he was. Perhaps more importantly, he could trust them. But it wasn't as simple as finding a team and heading into the cave. There were a lot of other factors at play. There were so many incredible things that had to align and that you guys made happen to pull this off. There's a lot of bureaucracy and there was a lot of press and there was a lot of what you call bullshit. How did you do that?
Rick Stanton: Certainly the press stuff, we're just very good at blinkering, so we just blinkered the press. We knew you couldn't escape them. There were hundreds of the journalists there.
Shelby Stanger: What's blinkering? That's a British term that I'm not aware of.
Rick Stanton: Just ignore them.
Shelby Stanger: Okay. I like that word. Okay. So you blinkered the press and then as far as the most remarkable thing, I think is you assembled this team of very unlikely characters and what a lot of people didn't realize is, when you took those pump workers, they barely made it many feet without wanting to take out the respirators and practically drown on you guys, that was risky. So you were going to have to sedate the boys. Can you just talk to me about that whole process and how you had this one friend, the only guy that would actually do that and that had never been tested.
Rick Stanton: That's not strictly true. I actually know five cave diving anesthesiologist.
Shelby Stanger: That's incredible.
Rick Stanton: And a few of them are in America, but as you said, no one had ever done this before. It was hugely radical and unprecedented, and there was no knowledge or basis or research or anything to know whether it would work. So the reason I chose Dr. Richard Harris is because I felt that he was a larger than life character who would be willing to listen to our concerns and that sedation was necessary and really risk his whole career and reputation. And I thought that he was probably the only one that would consider doing that.
Shelby Stanger: Yeah. And he did it and it worked it's, it was incredible. What also is really unique is that you guys are all really good friends. So you picked this team and they're all your buddies, which adds a whole other element to the rescue.
Rick Stanton: I've got buddies all over the world but, and that's how I knew Dr. Richard Harry. So I'd met him previously in New Zealand, I think quite a long time previously. We've got a similar interest, but the first thing I'd say is if you were picking a team to do something as desperate as this, of course, you'd pick people you know and trusted to be able to make decisions and be autonomous. Of course you would do that. You wouldn't pick strangers. There's cave divers all over the world and some of them are presumably quite good, but they don't quite do our style of diving. We're all described as expert problem solvers and that was really what was required there.
Rick Stanton: We were literally writing the procedures for this as it was going along. So you needed people that could freethink and critical think. So of course, you'd only call your friends in and we have to have a very tight knit team of people who've worked on expeditions together for 20 or more years. So we've been to the greatest depth of the planet and some of the longest dives. So of course those are the people that we would call in.
Shelby Stanger: There's a lot of logistical prowess that was executed with this rescue. Did you get that from your caving in rescues or did you take some of this from the fire service?
Rick Stanton: Well, I'd say a lot of it is innately in all quite logical people. And just by doing that, what we do for fun, which is go on these very long dives, it's not just putting a simple scuba cylinder on your back. We sometimes go under, I've been underwater for about 20 hours at a time or we've been in caves for weeks at a time. There's a whole logistical process involved in that. So I think logistics is one of our great fortes.
Shelby Stanger: How did you... During the actual rescue, were you going off of adrenaline? How did you guys just keep going, stay strong, well fed? I mean, it was like a rigorous rescue, kilometers of swimming with giant gear and humans.
Rick Stanton: We didn't really have any choice. We were the ones doing it. I lost a lot of weight. I lost about nine pounds in weight over the course of two weeks.
Shelby Stanger: Wow.
Rick Stanton: And that wasn't through not being able to feed myself. I guess that was just activity and I don't know if adrenaline's the right word, but certainly there's a lot of thinking power that was going on, especially in that middle week. And I think that consumes energy.
Shelby Stanger: Yeah. I think people underestimate, like when you're using your brain to solve problems, how much energy that breeze, but also cold water, burns a lot of calories.
Rick Stanton: Yeah. For us that wasn't... The water was not cold. It was 22 degrees centigrade. Sorry to use the wrong measurement for America, but to us, that's warm. So we weren't concerned about the cold, but I truly believe about deep thinking burns a lot of energy.
Shelby Stanger: What you guys did was like, you didn't have to do this. I know it was fun for you, but you risked a lot to do this. And generosity is something that I don't know, I feel like when you do a wild idea, but it's also tied to something greater than just you, it just makes it worth living.
Rick Stanton: I don't know if I see it as generosity. I just see it as we were the best place, people on the planet to do it. Why wouldn't you? I just can't understand why you wouldn't step up to the mark. That's what I think it is, stepping up to the mark. If you can see something and you can do it and no one else can or you think you are as best place as anyone, why would you not do that?
Shelby Stanger: After 17 days of being trapped in the cave, the divers were able to guide all 12 boys and their coach to safety. No one had ever done a rescue like this before. And suddenly Rick became an International hero. He was part of National Geographics, award-winning documentary, The Rescue and he wrote a book called Aquanaut. In 2021, Rick consulted on a feature film about the rescue called Thirteen Lives. The movie stars, Viggo Mortensen as Rick and it's directed by Ron Howard. It will come out in the Fall of 2022. Your life has probably changed a lot since the rescue. Do you want to comment on that? How has your life changed? How has your relationship to caving changed?
Rick Stanton: That's a good question because actually few years before the rescue, I had fallen out of caving, I had fallen out of favor, I guess, because I realized that I had dedicated my whole life to it at the expense of a whole load of other things like relationships or family, not that I particularly wanted a family, and a whole load of things. I realized I was very task orientated and focused. And I was almost questioning myself about whether I had made the right choices. And so the rescue absolutely reinforced the fact that I had made the right choices and it had turned me into the person that was able to lead the rescue.
Shelby Stanger: It's so cool how this moment in your life came together. But you have also retired and quite happy and now you have a press interview with someone like me, pretty much every day, you have a movie being made about you with... I mean, how badass, Viggo Mortenson's going to be playing you, Ron Howard's doing it.
Rick Stanton: Well, he's made it. I've seen it.
Shelby Stanger: He's made it. Cool.
Rick Stanton: I was there. I was a technical advisor. I was there on set for two and a half months. I had to get to know Viggo, had to get to know me prior to that. So we've had huge impact on, input rather into that movie.
Shelby Stanger: What was it like hanging out with Viggo? So he had to become you and act like you. Was that weird?
Rick Stanton: But he's a better actor than me, so he became a better me than I am.
Shelby Stanger: That's great. That's not a bad thing with a lot more makeup.
Rick Stanton: And they recreated my house in Australia where they filmed it. And it was all sorts of severe things, which is all part of how has my life changed is there's been these opportunities that would never have happened before.
Shelby Stanger: So you guys spent a little bit of time together, you and Viggo.
Rick Stanton: Yeah. Before the filming and then when the filming. I mean, yeah, we were on set every day for two and a half months.
Shelby Stanger: What do you think of the movie?
Rick Stanton: It's very good. I better not say anymore. It's very good.
Shelby Stanger: Okay, good. Good. Yeah. Don't tell me-
Rick Stanton: The Rescue has been nominated for BAFTA. It's an exceptionally good documentary and it's quite emotional. You think how could the Hollywood movie equal or better this. It's different, but equally as good.
Shelby Stanger: I just want to keep asking you for advice of people who-
Rick Stanton: Most of my friends would say... In fact, most of my friends would say don't ask me for advice. In fact, most of my friends tell other people who I've just met don't emulate anything I do because it's likely to end very badly.
Shelby Stanger: Your friends really like to tease you. It's really funny. I am going to ask you advice. What's the best advice that's been given to you about, well, about anything?
Rick Stanton: Well, I would say, and this comes down to the modern time, lots of people try to go too far, too fast. It's not about enjoying the activity, they switch sports. They try and go... Progress through courses and go as fast as possible. So just take it steady, enjoy the experience. I say, if you take progress in small incremental steps, you'll still go a long way.
Shelby Stanger: Rick never anticipated being one of the best cave divers in the world, but he took his time. He was always open to learning and he continued to seek new challenges. Rick Stanton, thank you so much for coming on Wild Ideas Worth Living. I loved our conversation. Thank you for reminding me to slow down and to take small steps toward big goals. If you want to learn more about Rick Stanton, you can watch the National Geographic documentary, The Rescue on Disney+. You can also read his great book, Aquanaut: the inside story of the Thai cave rescue, which we'll link to in the show notes. And keep an eye out for the film, Thirteen Lives which will be out in November.
Shelby Stanger: Wild Ideas Worth Living is part of the REI podcast network. It's hosted by me, Shelby Stanger, written and edited by Annie Fassler, and Sylvia Thomas of Puddle Creative and our senior producer is Chelsea Davis. Our executive producers are Paolo Mottola and Joe Crosby. As always, we appreciate when you follow the show, rate it and review it wherever you listen and remember, some of the best adventures happen when you follow your wildest ideas.