Alex Hutchinson is a science journalist who explores how technology is reshaping the way we experience the outdoors. While apps can guide us to trailheads and campsites, they can also strip away the thrill of the unexpected. In his recent book, The Explorer’s Gene, Alex blends stories of adventure with insights from psychology and neuroscience to show how breaking routine and embracing the unknown can lead to a more meaningful, fun, and productive life.
Alex Hutchinson is a science journalist who explores how technology is reshaping the way we experience the outdoors. While apps can guide us to trailheads and campsites, they can also strip away the thrill of the unexpected.
In his recent book, The Explorer’s Gene, Alex blends stories of adventure with insights from psychology and neuroscience to show how breaking routine and embracing the unknown can lead to a more meaningful, fun, and productive life.
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Shelby Stanger:
These days, your phone can prepare you for almost everything about adventuring outside. Apps like Google Maps, AllTrails, and Hipcamp point you to the trailhead, map your route, and even recommend a campsite. Technology has made the outdoors safer and more accessible than ever, but it can also take away some of the mystery and awe. Some of the most magical moments happen when we stumble onto the unexpected: a hidden campsite, a surprising viewpoint, or even a wild animal crossing our path. So how do we balance the thrill of discovery with the convenience of modern tools? And what does it really mean to explore today?
That's the question journalist Alex Hutchinson digs into in his new book, The Explorer's Gene. Drawing on behavioral psychology and neuroscience, Alex looks at how we explore in modern life. I'm Shelby Stanger, and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living, an REI Co-op Studios production presented by Capital One and the REI Co-op MasterCard.
Along with The Explorer's Gene and several other books, Alex has written Outside Magazine's Sweat Science column since 2017. His work often focuses on human performance. It makes sense; Alex once ran in the Canadian Olympic trials as an elite athlete.
Alex Hutchinson, welcome to Wild Ideas Worth Living. I'm really excited to talk to someone who talks about the science of human performance and exploration. You're like the perfect guest for us.
Alex Hutchinson:
Thanks, Shelby. It's great to be here.
Shelby Stanger:
This is random, but how fast can you run a mile today?
Alex Hutchinson:
Oh, that's a good question. And if my friends are listening, they'll hold me to it if I make any predictions. I would like to think I could dip under five minutes, but I would probably die at that point.
Shelby Stanger:
Dang, that's amazing. Okay, so how fast could you run a mile back in the day? What was your time?
Alex Hutchinson:
So I raced mostly 1,500 meters, which is slightly short of a mile.
Shelby Stanger:
Me too.
Alex Hutchinson:
If you do the conversion from my best 1,500, according to the World Athletics conversion tables, my best mile would've been 4:00.02, which breaks my heart.
Shelby Stanger:
OMG. That's incredible. So you barely broke four, but just so you know, I could never break five, so that's amazing. I'm just curious, how did you get interested in studying human performance, but also through physics?
Alex Hutchinson:
Yeah, another way of putting that is I was a bit of a mess coming out of high school and that I just had no idea what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a great runner, but I didn't know what I wanted to study. So actually, I got some advice from, I think it was a friend of my parents who was like, "Well, if you don't know what you'd want to do, do something hard because... Do something hard. For one thing, it's like it'll impress people. If you're trying to get a job, it's better to have done something challenging. And it'll engage you, and it's a lot easier to go from something hard to something easy than from something easy to something hard." So physics was... I enjoyed physics in high school, but the fundamental reason I did physics in university was it's hard, so let's pick the hardest thing I can do.
Shelby Stanger:
That's such good advice that I wish someone had given me because I picked the easiest thing I could study, which was journalism.
Alex Hutchinson:
Come on. Journalism is a deep, deep, deep, deep waters.
Shelby Stanger:
It is deep waters, but I took journalism and political science. I had to have a second major. So what was your relationship then with the outdoors growing up? How did you get curious about nature as well?
Alex Hutchinson:
I didn't really connect to the outdoors until, I think I was 15 or maybe I was 16, I can't remember. Anyway, a friend from high school was like, "Let's do a canoe trip." And I was like, "Sure, what's that?" And we planned a three-person canoe trip in Algonquin Park, which is about four hours north of where I live in Toronto, with very, very little knowledge. And I should write the story of this someday because it was just an absolute comedy show of errors. We just didn't know anything about anything. We packed for-
Shelby Stanger:
How old were you?
Alex Hutchinson:
So yeah, I think it was 15. We would've been 15.
Shelby Stanger:
Great age.
Alex Hutchinson:
And we planned out this route. We didn't know anything. The route had 32 kilometers of portaging in it, so we eventually realized we had to adjust the route. But packing food, we didn't know how to cook, so we're like, "Okay, we'll cook some stews, we'll take a bag of onions and a bag of potatoes and a bag of carrots." We could not lift our packs and the canoes were so... It was just the worst possible introduction to outdoors and backcountry, and I loved it. That was 1991, I think. And there hasn't been a year since then that I haven't done a pretty serious backcountry - I don't know what - It doesn't make sense, but it was so real and so decisions had consequences and all that, and I just loved it.
Shelby Stanger:
Alex savored the challenge of learning to camp, canoe, and hike at the backcountry near his home. As his parents' friend had advised, he decided to push himself academically as well. Alex studied physics at McGill University in Montreal, went on to get his PhD at Cambridge, and eventually took a job in physics research. It was interesting and engaging work, but deep down, Alex knew he wanted to do something else.
Alex Hutchinson:
I took a postdoctoral research position at the University of Maryland, and that turned out to be a really interesting physics job. I had great colleagues. It was a really fun place. It still wasn't my passion. And some of my colleagues, we would spend 16 hours in the lab and they'd come in the next day and say, "Hey, did you read that article in Physics Today?" And I'd be like, "No. No, I went home and I did not think about physics. I had enough." But they loved it so much that they went home and read more physics. And I was like, "I got to switch, so I got to find something where I'm excited about it in the way that they are." So I was 28 at that point, I left my postdoc and went to journalism school.
Shelby Stanger:
That's a big decision. I think I could say that a lot of the listeners here, well, at least I know I do, so I'm guessing a lot of people do, we deal with sunk costs. You invest all this time and all this effort into getting a degree in physics and then you want to switch to journalism?
Alex Hutchinson:
Yeah, I was able to convince myself that even though I'd invested a lot in physics, it had followed this principle of: I'd done something hard and that hard thing would benefit me, and it did. So journalism attracts people who went into fields that involved writing, physics did not involve writing, and you didn't write at all. So I didn't have the university training in writing, but what I had was a science background, and that made me unusual starting out as a freelance journalist.
Shelby Stanger:
So I'm curious how you started writing about human performance. You're a runner. You are running at the most elite level. If you're running a four-minute mile, you have to be doing everything right.
Alex Hutchinson:
So running was really what I cared about, that's where the passion was. Interestingly enough, running and science were very two completely different parts of my life and completely different parts of my brain. I didn't really know anything about the science of running. I knew about the history and the culture and the coaching and the sort of received wisdom of running and of endurance training in general, but I didn't know any physiology. I didn't actually know that there were people who studied this stuff and whose job it was to kind of try and understand how to run a faster mile. So that wasn't necessarily a career aspiration of mine because I didn't even know that world exists.
There probably wasn't one epiphany, but if I had to put a finger on it, I remember reading some columns by Gina Kolata in the New York Times. She had something called Personal Best. And Gina Kolata is an exceptional science and health reporter at the Times. She's also a runner, like a serious recreational runner.
So she got into this, interested in this like okay, what's the science of her passion or her hobby? And she wrote this series of columns called Personal Best, one of which was like lactic acid isn't the foe we once thought it was. Everyone blames lactic acid on fatigue. Actually, lactic acid is a help, it's a fuel, it's good for you. And this was I think 2006.
So she wrote these columns, talking to scientists, dispelling these things that I'd always heard from coaches. Hydration is actually the next big thing that I saw some science maybe a year later. There was a debate in, I think it was one of the leading physiology journals, does dehydration harm performance? And I was like, "Is this like does water make you wet? Of course, dehydration harms performance."
But they had a scientist named Tim Noakes arguing that actually we've misunderstood. And it's like as long as you're not thirsty, dehydration doesn't harm performance. And that blew my mind, but also then introduced me to there's this whole world of people learning about and arguing about open questions in science, about the things that I care most about. So I was like, "I got to start writing about this."
So once I saw that Gina Kolata's column was popular, I pitched a column to The Globe and Mail, which is the primary newspaper here in Canada, saying, "Look, people are interested in this stuff. I know you don't know who I am, I'm just some schmo. Look, but I have an expertise in running because that's been my life and I have an expertise in science. Don't ask which science, but I have expertise in science. I can write an equivalent column." And I actually, by some weird, strange cosmic chance, they were thinking of a column of that sort. So since I pitched, they were like, "Okay, dude, you can have the column."
Shelby Stanger:
Alex's column focused on debunking common myths about exercise and fitness. He covered how to recover from injuries, what and when to eat, and the most effective training techniques out there. He went on to contribute to other publications, including Runner's World and Outside Magazine.
In 2011, Alex published his first book about the science of exercise. As he dove deeper into the world of human performance, he became increasingly curious about the psychology behind adventure and exploration. He began to ask, where do wild ideas come from? And why do some people chase them more than others?
Alex Hutchinson is a science journalist and human performance expert. In May of 2025, he published his new book, The Explorer's Gene: Why We Seek Big Challenges, New Flavors, and the Blank Spots on the Map. When I heard about his book, I was struck by how relevant it is to this show. Our guests go after big, wild ideas. They put their lives on pause to travel to the remote corners of our world, and not everybody understands or supports their choices.
We often talk to guests about their why. Sometimes their catalyst is getting laid off from a job, going through a breakup or simply finding out what they're capable of. But according to Alex's new book, there may be some deeper, more innate factors that predispose us to adventure.
So what is the explorer's gene? It's not like you're born with this thing and you're going to go explore. You're not born with it.
Alex Hutchinson:
Yeah, yeah. So I submitted this book proposal with the provocative title, The Explorer's Gene. And then I wrote the book and I was like, "We're not really going to call it that, are we? Because people are going to think it's just one gene that you either explore or..." And they're like, "No, no, no, it's a good title." I'm like, "No, no. It's going to mislead people."
So let me say for the record that there's not one gene that determines whether you're an explorer or not. There are genes that affect our behavior, and there's one in particular that I write about a bit that affects how dopamine is processed in your brain. It has to do with a dopamine receptor called DRD4. So some people are more sensitive to the feeling of something unexpected. So those people are more driven to ski out of bounds at ski resorts. They're also more driven to become problem gamblers. Historically, those people migrated farther 50,000 years ago when humans were spreading across the globe.
Shelby Stanger:
Can you dive deeper into that? It's really interesting.
Alex Hutchinson:
I had a dream when I wrote this book that I would explain really clearly what dopamine was, and then I really dug into the science. I'm like, "Okay. No, dopamine is super complicated and even scientists don't agree what it's about." So start with the premise that dopamine does a lot of things and it's complicated.
But for our purposes here, the best way to think about dopamine is not that it's like some pleasure chemical. It's not like I had such a great piece of chocolate, now I'm getting lots of dopamine. It's not about pleasure, it's about your expectations. You get a hit of dopamine when something is better than you expected, which is why the first time you do something new or interesting, it's like that was amazing. You get this hit of dopamine, which is your brain's way of saying, "Do this again. This was a smart thing to do." But the 10th time you do it, you already know what to expect, and so you don't get the same hit of dopamine. And that is fundamentally why you're like, "I should try doing something different because if I keep doing the same thing again, I know what to expect. I no longer get that hit of dopamine."
Shelby Stanger:
But what is it about explorers that tend to have this thing in common? The sensitivity?
Alex Hutchinson:
So for some people, the thrill of something being better than you expect, it's stronger than others. And I don't think this is just about that gene I mentioned. This is a much more complex thing, there's lots of genes that are involved. It's also how you were brought up, what your environment was.
Shelby Stanger:
I was going to ask you about that because a lot of the people on our podcast survive childhood trauma or struggled with addiction, and then they go on to do this big wild idea.
Alex Hutchinson:
Right. Right. It's like as you were growing up, what behaviors were rewarded and what were punished? And how much security do you have? If you look at how far kids are willing to wander away from their parents to explore, if you have secure attachment to your parents, those kids are generally willing to wander farther. So they're able to take more risks because they know they have a safe landing spot.
So to me, the importance of the research on the explorer's gene is not to say some people are born to do it, and some people aren't. It's actually to say we're all born to do it in some way, that we all have a DRD4 dopamine receptor. Some people, the volume is turned up more than others, and some people, other factors are pushing them more than others. But we're all fundamentally wired in this way because it's useful as a species to be finding out what's over the horizon, what's around the next corner.
It's also useful in any society to have people with different traits. This is not one of those things where there's a perfect way to be or a right way to be. Any society needs people who are pushing at the borders, trying to find new things, and also people who are keeping the home fires burning and making sure that the house isn't collapsing or whatever. So you just have to be intentional or deliberate about why you're choosing one answer or the other, that you're not just sticking to the familiar because you're afraid of taking a chance, but because you've decided this is the better option for me right now.
Shelby Stanger:
I think it's important to underline Alex's point here. The question isn't necessarily about whether we should go adventuring or stay closer to home. Instead, we need to examine why we want to do one or the other. Do we explore because we're curious or are we running away from something? Are we staying put because it's nourishing to do so or because we're afraid of the unknown? If we can answer these questions, we might learn more about ourselves and what style of exploration makes us happy.
Alex Hutchinson:
I was telling people I was working on a book about exploring. Lots of people would say, "Oh, that's interesting, but I'm not an explorer." And I think often, what they meant by that is, I am uninterested in trying to ski to the South Pole unsupported. And it's like, that's okay, I don't want to do that either. That's not what I mean by exploring. I mean exploring can mean a lot of different things, and it can mean not just physical things. It can mean intellectual exploration. What food do you like eating? What music do you like listening to? What books do you read? And all of these are ways of exploring that I think are not just metaphorically similar, but it's the same parts of your brain that are titillated by just discovering something new.
So in my life, I'm quite risk averse. In two days, I'm heading out on a canoe trip that'll be pretty intense. But the part of the whitewater canoe trip that I enjoy the least is going through the rapids. And I'm probably the most experienced canoeist on my trip, but the least likely to choose to run any given set of rapids. So I love being there and I love facing the choices and I love being in the wilderness, but I'm not out there to try and kill myself.
So when I think about exploring choices in my life, it's not like I want to put myself on the edge where if I make one wrong move, I'm going to drown or I'm going to have my mortgage foreclosed or whatever. I'm not seeking risk, I'm seeking novelty. But I don't mind effort, which is the other... I don't mind if it's hard. And exploring, it's almost always hard to do the new thing, to open up new territory, to not stick with what's familiar. It's going to be challenging. And there's an idea called the effort paradox, which is that-
Shelby Stanger:
I'm so glad you're talking about this. Okay.
Alex Hutchinson:
There are things we do not in spite of the fact that they're hard, but because they're hard. Mountaineers, of course, like Alex Honnold would be the classic example of like, dude, there's an easier way to get up this mountain. It's not about the view at the top. It's not like I'm willing to suffer to get to this view. It's like, no, I came here specifically to take the hard route up the mountain.
There's a whole class of behaviors like this, like ordering furniture from Ikea is one of these behaviors that people have studied ordering furniture from Ikea, and it's like you tend to value the furniture more if you've struggled with it than if you got the same furniture pre-assembled. So we're wired to find meaning in doing things that are hard, doing things like bringing up children. Look, the meaning of life is super hard to define, and I'm not here to define the meaning of life. But if you ask people which of these activities in your life felt meaningful, the ones they pick tend to be the ones that were challenging and hard. And I think that's one of the things we get from choosing to explore is we get to grapple with challenges and feel like we're doing meaningful things.
Shelby Stanger:
The most rewarding experiences of my life have been some of the hardest things I've ever done: quitting my job to become a journalist, surfing waves out of my comfort zone, even paddling the Amazon River. Part of the excitement of adventure is that we don't always know what's over the next ridge. But these days, so much has been explored and we have so much information at our fingertips that we have to actively choose discovery over convenience.
We live in an age where most things are predictable. This notion of exploration has sort of been ripped from society because we have Surfline who could tell us what the waves are going to look like. I no longer have to just drive to surf spots and look, I can just turn on my computer. There's all sorts of places like that today where you can go look at the hike you're going to do on AllTrails. You can see people's pictures.
How do we still cultivate this feeling of exploration when so much is at our fingertips? And then I want to also talk to you about direction, and the use of paper maps versus GPS and what it does to our brain.
Alex Hutchinson:
So this is something I really struggle with. I don't want to die, so it feels stupid for me to... I'm about to paddle a whitewater river. I have a guidebook to it. And I would say five years ago, I would've spent quite a bit of time looking at travel blogs, people who've paddled the river. Let's see what shape the water's in right now. How hard is that rapid? What are the consequences? I don't want to get rid of that.
And the same way my new iPhone has satellite messaging capabilities. And that's great for safety, but I don't want to be texting with friends in the evening around the campfire when I'm supposed to be totally off grid. So there's all these technologies that make the wilderness and exploration and adventure more accessible and safer, but they risk undermining the things we're looking for, the actual things we're looking for.
So GPS is a great example of that. In some ways, it definitely frees you up to explore more. I was in Paris for a work assignment a couple months ago and I was like, "I really want to not be locked to staring at my phone, so I'm just going to go wander through the streets." I'm going to go for a run. I'm going to run towards the Eiffel Tower and just find my own way and then see if I could find my way back. And the answer was no, I could not find my way back. I got hopelessly lost. I had the freedom to do that because I had my phone with me so I could take it out and say, "I'm a mile north of where I thought I was. All right, now I'm going that way." And then I would overshoot again. Whoop, now I'm a mile south of where I thought I was.
So these tools can be used in a way that enables exploration. But I think more often, what technology is doing for us is eliminating exploration. The one concrete change in my life that I made after researching for this book was like I don't turn on turn-by-turn directions in my car anymore, unless I really need them. I will look at a map, try and figure out okay, to get from here to there, this is where I need to go. Then I'll try and follow that template in my head, or at worst on the map view on my car screen without the turn-by-turn directions. Because with the turn-by-turn directions, you don't have to have a clue where you are or where you're going.
Shelby Stanger:
But there is something that's happening to your brain when you're not using directions and trying to use your brain to figure out which way to go. Now, I'm one of those direction challenged people that used to get lost in cross-country races, and I would just go the wrong way. If you said left, go right. But there's something that you've studied that physically happens to your brain when you're figuring out your own way, using your own brain and not just staring at a screen.
And I think this is important because every listener here hikes, I'm sure. We can either download the whole map, which is helpful, we need that as a backup. AllTrails is a great app. But when we don't just look at it, what happens?
Alex Hutchinson:
Yeah. So there are fundamentally two ways to find your way through the world. One is you make a cognitive map in your head. You have literally the equivalent of a paper map mapped in a region of your brain called the hippocampus, and then you're kind of keeping track of where you are relative to this map in your head.
The other way is basically called stimulus response, and it uses a different part of the brain called the caudate nucleus, and that's what turn-by-turn directions are. So stimulus response is you don't actually remember the relationship between where things are, you just remember to get to the library, I turn right at the gas station, then go three blocks and then hang a left at the park. So you might know stimulus response directions between a whole bunch of different places, but you can't come up with shortcuts or adjust on the fly because you only know how to get from A to B by following those series of lefts and rights in this, just like-
Shelby Stanger:
That's how my brain works. Yes.
Alex Hutchinson:
And it's exactly how turn-by-turn directions in the GPS work. And frankly, that is the faster and more efficient and less error-prone way of navigating. So as kids, we start out using cognitive maps most of the time because we haven't memorized routes. The older you get, the more likely people are to start using, you put them in a virtual maze where you can navigate either way. Kids will tend to default to cognitive mapping. Young adults will be like 50/50. Older adults, it'll be like 3/4 of them will use stimulus response because it's faster, it's easier, it's more efficient.
The problem is the brain is like any other part of the body. The more you use it, the stronger it gets. The less you use, it'll start to sort of wither away. So what they find is that people, the more you get away from cognitive mapping and use stimulus response navigation, you're more likely to have a bigger caudate nucleus and a smaller hippocampus.
And the hippocampus is a really important part of the brain. It's associated with memory. And having a smaller hippocampus is associated with the higher risk of a whole bunch of brain conditions, including Alzheimer's and depression.
So I really wrestled with how to present this in my book because the evidence is connecting a series of dots, suggesting that yeah, if you kind of stop navigating, stop thinking about where you are and pay attention in the world, your hippocampus is going to get smaller and you're going to get Alzheimer's and die. So the evidence isn't strong enough to sound the alarm at full volume, but it's suggestive and it's strong enough for me to be like, "Yeah, I'm going to not use turn-by-turn directions in my car except when I need it," because it's very instinctive, right?
Now, I get in a car, I take my kids to soccer practice like 150 times a week or something like that. I know where the soccer practice is, but I still turn on turn-by-turn directions. It gives me traffic information and stuff. It's like, okay, I need to stop using turn-by-turn directions except when I really need it, partially because of the quality of the experience, that I want to be present in the world and looking at it. But also it's like, yeah, maybe there's this brain health aspect that's worth considering.
Shelby Stanger:
I love that. I'm going to turn off my turn-by-turn directions except for when I really need it and have to go somewhere deep into San Diego.
Alex Hutchinson:
And my apologies if it results in you getting lost. But you know what? Getting lost is not the end of the world. As long as you're not running late for an appointment, it's exploring.
Shelby Stanger:
The choice to turn off directions can definitely be a fun exercise in exploration. It also might end up being a total waste of time. But that seemingly tiny act is really just a micro-adventure and a chance to flex your exploration muscle. These small moments prepare us for the bigger choices, the ones where the stakes are higher and the chances of regret loom larger.
I do want to talk about regret because you've explored this.
Alex Hutchinson:
Because we would regret it if we didn't.
Shelby Stanger:
Well, and also it's just something that I think a lot of us struggle with.
Alex Hutchinson:
Yeah. There is a mathematical study of regret. And we don't need to go too deep into the weeds, but there's a couple of useful insights. One is the amount of regret you have in your life will always increase. Nobody is perfect. You cannot know everything and make every perfect decision. And when you make a decision that could have turned out differently, you'll be like, "Oh, I guess I should have gone for door A, not for door B." So-
Shelby Stanger:
That's so interesting because I'm like, "I never had regrets as a kid." I used to think it was so weird when old people talked about this. I'm like, "But now I have a few and I never did before." It's the first time.
Alex Hutchinson:
Yeah, you start with no regrets. As time goes on, it doesn't mean you have to spend your time sitting there bemoaning the... But if someone were to probe you deep enough, it would be like, yeah, I guess I kind of wish I had done that differently, or I hadn't said that or... You can't avoid regret, but what you can do is minimize regret.
And if you go deep into the mathematical algorithms, there's no right answer. You can never be like, "Oh, I'll just plug in my calculator and it'll tell me what I should order for food or what career I should go." But there's some general trends you can pick out to minimize regret, and one of the most powerful is to be optimistic in the face of uncertainty. In other words, when you're choosing between two options, think of what's the best case scenario? If things go right, in both cases, which is the one that puts me at a better place?
So think in terms of let's say you're considering two job options. And one of them, it looks pretty good, it's pretty stable, has good pay, but maybe it doesn't... There's not much opportunity for advancement, you're just going to be stuck at that job. The other one is maybe a little less secure, starts with a lower salary, but it has a recognizable pathway to what you consider to be your dream position.
Optimism in the face of uncertainty would be to say, "Let's assume that all's going to go well, so I should take the second job because that's going to get me where I really want to go." And it may not, but you're less likely to regret it if you choose optimistically than if you choose defensively. Then you get the secure job, everything's fine. But you're always left with that regret of, what if I had gone for it and I could have gotten that dream job?
I should add that, look, that's not the only factor you should consider when making a job. If it's like you need to pay the rent and job A will let you pay the rent, and job B won't, then take job A because you need to pay the rent. But all else being equal, leaning towards the option with the greatest upside, to be optimistic in the face of uncertainty.
Shelby Stanger:
Exploration isn't just about reaching an intimidating summit or skiing a new line. It's about embracing the unknown with curiosity. While some might consider it naive, there's power in choosing optimism over hesitation. We never know what's around the next corner, but in that uncertainty, there are opportunities for self-discovery and growth.
You can buy The Explorer's Gene wherever books are sold. And if you want to keep up with Alex, follow him on Instagram @sweat_science. That's S-W-E-A-T underscore S-C-I-E-N-C-E.
Wild Ideas Worth Living as part of the REI Podcast Network. It's hosted by me, Shelby Stanger, produced by Annie Fassler, Sylvia Thomas, and Sam Peers Nitzberg of Puddle Creative. Our senior producer is Jenny Barber. Our executive producers are Palo Mottola and Joe Crosby.
As always, we love it when you follow the show. Take time to rate it and write a review wherever you listen. And remember, some of the best adventures happen when you follow your wildest ideas.