Nadah Feteih spent years working as a software engineer before discovering a deep passion for the outdoors. As she ventured into running, trekking, and mountaineering, she often found herself as the only woman wearing a hijab on the trail. That experience led Nadah to found Ma'wa Collective, an adventure company dedicated to creating space for Muslim women in the outdoors.
Nadah Feteih spent years working as a software engineer before discovering a deep passion for the outdoors. As she ventured into running, trekking, and mountaineering, she often found herself as the only woman wearing a hijab on the trail. That experience led Nadah to found Ma'wa Collective, an adventure company dedicated to creating space for Muslim women in the outdoors.
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Nadah Feteih:
I think I've always had those wild ideas where I can see the North Star and what this will look like 10 years from now, but convincing people of it now is rough. I just love what adventure travel has taught me, and that's why I'm so passionate about sharing that with others. It builds a lot of self-confidence. It's incredibly humbling, really pushes your limits. To me, there is nothing better that you can put yourself through, and to do something for yourself.
Shelby Stanger:
When Nadah Feteih first started hiking and camping, she fell in love with the rhythm of long days outside. She savored the profound quiet of the forest, the meditative flow of walking on a trail and hypnotic crackling of a campfire. But the more time she spent on the trails, she noticed something. She was often the only woman wearing a hijab. It was a little isolating, but it didn't deter her from pushing herself to take on bigger and bigger challenges. As Nadah became a more skilled hiker, she decided to climb Mount Kilimanjaro. That trip sparked an idea: What if she created a community where Muslim women could come together, adventure, and build confidence? I'm Shelby Stanger, and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living, an REI Co-op Studios production presented by Capital One and the REI Co-op MasterCard. Nadah Feteih, welcome to Wild Ideas Worth Living. So for people who don't know you, how do you introduce yourself and your work?
Nadah Feteih:
Ooh, that's a loaded question. I always wonder what parts of me should I share? How do I tell this story? I have a background in computer science. I worked as a software engineer for a number of years, and over the last few years, my obsession with the outdoors began. I started running, trekking and eventually getting into mountaineering, and the one thing that I've always been passionate about is building community and sharing the love that I have for my hobbies with others, and so I started an adventure company a few years back for Muslim women, and so I've been running group trips taking Muslim women outdoors for the last two years, and it's been a journey itself learning how to be an entrepreneur while also kind of traveling a bunch for my own adventures and it's just been a crazy journey.
Shelby Stanger:
I love it. I love it. I'm curious where your love of outdoor adventure began. Did you grow up outdoorsy? Were your parents outdoorsy?
Nadah Feteih:
So I feel like I've always had that free spirit in me. I've always loved being outside. I joke with my friends and I say I'm solar-powered. I just need the sun to get energy and to feel happy. One of my first memories is actually a camping trip that my family took us on in Yosemite National Park. It was me, my two sisters, my parents, and a number of other Egyptian families that were living in the Bay Area at the time, and I still look back at those pictures and I feel like there was a seed planted then, and I think we're really fortunate to have had that experience. A lot of immigrants don't really feel as confident or comfortable going outdoors.
I didn't fully lean into it until college when my friends and I here in San Diego would go hiking. And then once I graduated, I started traveling more. So I started driving to different national parks within California and then across the West Coast and then started signing up for different races. I really loved running at the time and building up my endurance, to eventually doing big summits like Kilimanjaro. That was my first big trek, and I stood at the summit on January 1st, 2023, and I always say that was a big turning point for me and it really established my love for the big mountains.
Shelby Stanger:
How did that trip come about?
Nadah Feteih:
After I got laid off from my software engineering job at Meta at the end of 2022. It was a big shock for me. The layoffs were completely random. I was a high-performer. I wasn't happy with my work the prior six months, and I switched teams so many times trying to figure out what is it that needed to change, but I did not have the confidence to just quit and to figure out what was going to come next in my life, and so I always say it was a blessing that I didn't have to make that decision and the decision was made for me and it really just... My world was open.
Shelby Stanger:
So you got laid off from Meta, Facebook in 2020-
Nadah Feteih:
November 2022. And in December I left for Kilimanjaro.
Shelby Stanger:
So did you just sign up on a random trip or did you have friends?
Nadah Feteih:
Yeah, I signed up with... It's a adventure company based in Dubai and a lot of Arabs take trips with them, and I remember a lot of the Arab mountaineers and climbers that I was following had joined them on trips before. And even though I'm born and raised here in the US, I'm American, culturally and religiously it was really important for me to go with that company because being around other Arabs and Muslims, you have the same foundation, same culture, same values, and so I think finding those people abroad that had the same passion and love for hiking and trekking, we just had a lot in common and a lot to connect on while we were on the mountain.
Shelby Stanger:
What was the highlight of that trip?
Nadah Feteih:
I think it was making it to the summit and realizing, "Wow. I'm so much stronger than I thought I was." I've never done anything like this. It was a little nerve-racking signing up for it, going to a different country, hiking with people I've never met before, but I also was confident enough in a way where I was like, "I can figure out what I need to figure out to do this thing," and then I made it to the top and I was like, "Wow. It can only go up from here. If I could do this, who knows what I could do after that."
Shelby Stanger:
Mount Kilimanjaro was the hardest trek Nadah had tackled up to that point, but it was also her biggest triumph. One factor that made it so meaningful were the connections she made with the other hikers on her trip. Suffering and summiting with people she knew shared her values, created a powerful bond. That trip planted a seed. Nadah knew she wanted to share these transformative outdoor experiences with other Muslim women.
How soon after you got back from Kilimanjaro were you like, "I need to start something. This is my next job?"
Nadah Feteih:
You know what's funny? I was ready to leave the country again right when I came back to the US after Kilimanjaro. I came back in January, still was unemployed, I had so many other dreams and goals and beautiful places I was finding online that I wanted to go trek and hike in, and at that point I was sharing a lot of my adventures on social media and a lot of women in my community would see the places I'd go to or the adventures that I'd go on and would say, "Oh, I would love to do that," or, "I never have people to go with." And so that was kind of where I realized, "Let me see if there are other women that would want to come with me. Maybe I can organize something." So I planned a weekend camping trip in Death Valley National Park, and so we drove up for the weekend and after posting on social media, 50 women had responded saying they'd love to go camping with us, or with me at the time.
Shelby Stanger:
This just your own social media account?
Nadah Feteih:
Yeah, I just posted it and I realized, "Wow. People just want to go with someone who can plan the whole thing and has that expertise or that experience." And it was the first time a lot of these women were camping and those evenings we would spend just stargazing around the campfire and those reflections that got so deep, and folks really opening up and being vulnerable, and a number of other girls in that group had gotten laid off. Just the tech industry was going through a really rough time. And I remember sitting there with 19 women around me and realizing, "Wow. If I hadn't lost my job a couple months ago, we wouldn't all be here."
Shelby Stanger:
On that first trip to Death Valley, Nadah saw how important it was for Muslim women to spend time outside together. She also discovered how much she enjoyed leading these trips. From there, Nadah decided to put on another excursion a few months later and another one a few months after that. This was the beginning of a guiding business, which she named Ma'wa Collective.
So you took some people to Death Valley, you probably planned some other trips after that. Where was this aha moment where you're like, "I have to plan this. I have to start this, this is my next job."? When does this happen?
Nadah Feteih:
So it all happened pretty quickly. I think I did that first group trip in February 2023. I did one more trip in May and maybe one more in September, and it was October 2023 and I found out that REI Path Ahead Ventures was partnering with Founded Outdoors to launch this accelerator program for people of color starting small businesses in the outdoor industry, and as soon as I read that line, I was like, "Well, that's me." And I knew what I was running had a lot of potential. We had really high demand in all of our trips, we were selling all of our trips out and it was profitable. So I was like, "Okay, this sounds like a business to me."
Shelby Stanger:
What's the mission of Ma'wa Collective?
Nadah Feteih:
Well, I usually say Ma'wa Collective is an adventure company rooted in faith, exploration and self-discovery for Muslim women. I'd only ever come across a handful of other Hijabis or Muslims on the trails, and so it is very important for our community to be out there and to be visible, especially now with everything that's happening in the Middle East, and we're trying to carve out those spaces where we can also heal and we can be outdoors and we can be with each other, and nature is just so healing and... That's where the name Ma'wa Collective comes from. Ma'wa in Arabic means a place of refuge or sanctuary, and that's how I'd always felt about the outdoors, and when you think of a refuge or a safe space, it's so hard to even contextualize what that would mean in the world that we're living in right now, and so if we can even have that small slice of solace through an hour of meditation that we're doing outdoors or just hiking in silence, it's really beautiful. And in a lot of the noise that we're surrounded with right now, it's hard to find that.
Shelby Stanger:
Many of the women who join the Ma'wa trips have never hiked or camped before. One possible reason is that they might not feel comfortable hiking in mixed-gender company or traveling solo, which can make outdoor adventures feel out of reach. Ma'wa collective addresses these barriers by organizing women-only trips that teach skills like packing gear and setting up tents. From a business perspective, it quickly found success. In the first year, Ma'wa Collective hosted over 500 participants on outdoor trips.
So Ma'wa Collective, you started it in 2023 and your first year was really impressive. How many trips did you actually run?
Nadah Feteih:
Yeah, we ran 26 group trips in our first full year, which is a pretty insane number from what I realize now after kind of entering the industry and seeing how other adventure companies run, and I always say we're assembling the train tracks as the train is running.
Shelby Stanger:
That is a lot for year one. What kind of trips did you take people on?
Nadah Feteih:
Yeah, we did a lot of nature trips here in the U.S. We would visit national parks, we would do a lot of cabin trips, glamping trips. We did maybe a couple of backpacking trips.
Shelby Stanger:
And did you lead all these trips?
Nadah Feteih:
No, I stopped leading trips by month three and then started finding other really passionate women from the group trips that I had run, and they obviously believed in the mission and wanted to contribute in some ways, so then kind of had a very casual training process and then pulled them into leading trips and we're kind of slowing down now. I want to make sure that we're properly training all of our leads and we're putting out quality experiences, but it's a collective because I don't want to be the face behind it. I want us to build and to grow this community in a way where these women can work with us as outdoor guides. I can build a team of women who can help us build this to a point where it's serving thousands of people.
Shelby Stanger:
When I taught surfing, women would come for a weekend or a week-long clinic, and then they would quit their job, divorce their husbands, or move across the country to San Diego, and their life would never be the same again, and then it would keep going and going and going. I'm curious if some of these women have developed courage that they've taken outside of their lives to do other things.
Nadah Feteih:
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, and that's why I love the focus on adventure travel because we are not just going on these retreats or these vacations. I want people to feel uncomfortable. I want them to push themselves out of their comfort zone and to do something that scares you, and I think that's how I developed a lot of the confidence and courage that I have now. I used to be so, so shy growing up. My mom always says I didn't start talking until I was five. And so I really feel like a lot of the outdoor adventures I've done have given me a lot of confidence to pursue other wild ideas and to live in the way that I do now.
Shelby Stanger:
What adventure have you done that has given you the most confidence? Was it that Kilimanjaro trip?
Nadah Feteih:
Oh, that was Aconcagua. I did Aconcagua in January. I sat on the summit of the highest mountain in the Americas, January 16th, I believe. It was a 16-day expedition. I'd never camped for that long or been in the mountains or really rocked it for that long before, and it was an experience that really tested me. Not just physically, I think I was well-prepared for it, but mentally. You're just left to the elements at some point, and as much as you've trained for the summit, day 12, you're on the mountain and you're monitoring the weather forecast and you don't know what the wind conditions are going to be like your summit day, if you're going to need to go up earlier or later and you start to feel the symptoms of altitude sickness and you're wearing the same clothes for seven or eight days. It's just crazy and it gives you a lot of gratitude for what you have in your day-to-day life and a lot of humility.
Shelby Stanger:
What was the hardest part of Aconcagua?
Nadah Feteih:
What's so funny is I'd almost bailed from the Aconcagua summit two months prior. I was just really stressed and overwhelmed with work. I was guilty about taking time off to go do the summit. It was almost three weeks. I was feeling guilty about the financial investment I'd be putting into this, but I'd connected with one of the social media and community managers at GU Energy Gels, and we chit-chatted for a little bit and he knew about my summit and he'd ended up mailing me a whole box of gels with a really nice postcard, a note that said something like, "What you're doing is amazing. I'm really proud of you. I have no doubt you're going to summit Aconcagua."
And I swear, the day before I'd gotten that package, I had already sent the email dropping out of the expedition. I was just not feeling confident anymore, and so getting that note from someone who actually doesn't know me at all but believes in me in some way kind of made me feel like I should still put in the effort and try to pursue this. And so he knows that. I told him afterwards, I actually changed my mind and I decided I'm just going to go through with it and went through the entire expedition and made it to the top, and so it was worth it.
Shelby Stanger:
That's really cool that a total stranger in the outdoor industry just sent you some GU with a note and it really impacted you.
Nadah Feteih:
Yeah, and that's why it's so important to support marginalized communities and people of color like me that are in this space because it's so demoralizing sometimes when you feel like you're the only one trying to do these things even though I was physically and mentally ready to pursue this big expedition. No one understands it from my community or my family, so I will still second guess why I am doing these things, and for someone from the outdoor industry who's supported a lot of other athletes to just extend that gesture and that note. Words mean a lot sometimes. Not feeling the best, hearing it from someone else. And so yeah, I emailed them back. I said, "Put me back on. I'm coming."
Shelby Stanger:
Receiving that kind of recognition and support from a stranger had a huge impact on Nadah's confidence. It mirrors what she's doing with Ma'wa. She wants to give the participants not only the tactical skills required for camping and hiking, but also faith in their own abilities.
Nadah Feteih is the founder of Ma'wa Collective, a company that runs adventure trips for Muslim women. Nadah has a background in tech and operating Ma'wa Collective has been a real learning experience for her. Now that outdoor adventure has become her profession, Nadah has made it a priority to keep going on expeditions just for fun, like her trip to Aconcagua. While she's gained confidence on bigger climbs, one challenge has followed her from the very beginning: Finding outdoor gear that feels comfortable and modest. For many Muslim women, the right clothing can be the difference between feeling ready for the trail and staying home.
Nadah Feteih:
With Ma'wa Collective, it's the first time a lot of these women are going outdoors and they're always asking for recommendations on gear and clothing, and there's been a gap in the market. Clearly, no one's really served our community before, and so there's so much potential, not just in my own personal experiences and expeditions that I want to pursue, but in sharing that with so many others.
Shelby Stanger:
Well, okay. Let's just talk about the biggest difference in your community aesthetically. There's only one difference.
Nadah Feteih:
We're covered.
Shelby Stanger:
Yes. Can you tell me what has worked? Is there any gear companies that are awesome?
Nadah Feteih:
Yeah, absolutely. And I started a whole series on Instagram trying to review modest activewear options, things that I've tried out and things that work for me and the system I've landed on, but I can honestly say that the reason why it took me so long to get into running was because I did not feel confident enough to run outdoors in my headscarf. I was like, "I'm going to get so many stares." I was still really self-conscious in high school, and it's just material that you feel like is going to stifle me, and I just didn't know what my options were and I just didn't want to get stared at. But when I saw other hijabi runners and they were doing it so flawlessly and they were training for marathons, I was like, "Wow. I can actually do this thing." And so representation and seeing people that look like you're doing these things matters a lot, and that's why I still share things online and I share my own journey into getting into these hobbies.
From a safety perspective, a lot of us don't feel comfortable running in certain spaces as a covered Muslim woman, especially in times we're living in now with a lot of racism and rising Islamophobia, and you need that community and those people to run with to feel comfortable and safe doing it outdoors. I feel like I quickly got that confidence in terms of running by myself in different places, but I still struggled to find out what I should wear. A lot of sports hijabs have the wicking material that maybe is a little bit more breathable, it just never really fit me very well or I didn't feel comfortable running in them.
My system right now is I usually find an outdoor hoodie, like those sun hoodies that they make that have the hood with at least some sort of neck coverage, it's got a collar. I have ones from Black Diamond and from Mountain Hardwear that I feel like work really well. I don't see a lot of running tops that have hoods that also kind of give you that neck coverage, and so I've been trying out a bunch of those. There's a lot of Muslim women out there that are working on making modest activewear options.
Shelby Stanger:
I was wondering if this is your next wild idea. It seems like-
Nadah Feteih:
A lot of people have been asking me, and I'm like, "I have enough projects on my plate right now, but I will support any woman that wants to," and we've had a number of women who have reached out that are building things, and I've tried out some of their products. A lot of the issues though are that there's a big emphasis on gym wear, and the one thing that... A lot of my hot takes when I've been doing these reviews is-
Shelby Stanger:
That's the same with hiking gear and even for non-covered people-
Nadah Feteih:
Yeah, and I'm just like, "Okay, the hoodie that you just made is fantastic. I've tried it out and that works if I'm going to the gym, but I will not be running 10 miles on this," and so it's really hard for me to express this to those smaller, modest, activewear companies that are trying to build things that will fill a need for what a lot of the women in our community are looking for. I feel like the runners and hikers like me are still a subset maybe of active Muslim women and women that are into fitness, but I mean, regardless of whether you're Muslim or not, I just feel like there should be more modest options for women out there both... On the running side, I've had a lot more luck with hiking gear where I feel like naturally it is a little bit flowier or it's just not as tight and form-fitting.
Shelby Stanger:
Ah, I was like, "Modest?" I'm like, "I just need sun coverage."
Nadah Feteih:
Yeah, yeah. So a lot of the sun hoodies are a little bit looser. If you're going to be outside, you don't want something that's super tight.
Shelby Stanger:
And can you describe your choice of clothing for people to understand what you're coming from?
Nadah Feteih:
A lot of Muslim women are... It's a whole spectrum. There are some women that choose to dress more modestly and more conservatively, then there's others who don't wear the headscarf but still don't want to really be wearing shorts and want longer options. I try to find a balance in what I'm doing, and so I try to make sure I'm wearing a longer top that at least covers me from behind because I don't wear a lot of sports hijabs and I wear the hoods with a hat over it to keep it on, it covers my hair completely.
But it doesn't really work the best in terms of covering my neck, and your neck is still something you should be covering as a woman who's wearing the full hijab, and that's something that I struggle with myself and I'm really honest about with my faith is making sure I'm covering myself completely, as someone who's more visible as an influencer, and I know I have a lot of women that are looking up to me. And so I think you just end up feeling a lot of that pressure in terms of being the best role model you can be, but also being yourself and accepting that you're struggling with certain things.
Shelby Stanger:
As a Muslim adventurer with a social media presence, Nadah says she's had to deal with scrutiny and negative comments from people outside her community. She's also felt judged by other Muslims. In fact, Nadah even had to convince her own family that these outdoor trips are safe, appropriate, and life-changing experiences.
I'm really curious what your parents and your family thinks of this because you told me that they've drank the Kool-Aid.
Nadah Feteih:
They've come around. It's been a process. I can safely say that five years ago I was met with a lot more resistance in pursuing any of these objectives or hobbies. I used to have to make PowerPoint presentations to convince them to let me go on some of these treks, and I even put on those slides, look, there's other Arab and Muslim women that wear hijab that are climbing. Why can't I do this? And obviously doing my research, they're just worried. My dad has three daughters, I'm the middle child, I'm the more rebellious one, and so they just wanted me to stay safe, and so I took some time before they realized, "Okay, this girl knows what she's doing and she's training for these things," and I think it's just something that's so novel and new.
And other than those three Arab women that I put on those slides, I had no one that I could point to say, "But this woman in our community is doing these things." But now I can safely say that a lot of women in our community... There's a lot of parents that reach out to Ma'wa Collective and say, "My daughter found your Instagram and she wants to go on this trip, but I'm really nervous," and I will be the first to say, I will talk to any parents because I know how hard it was, and you can throw me under the bus, I will do anything to make sure you have this experience, and it's such a shared, relatable struggle that is so niche to our community that it's hard to describe, but I'm sure you kind of get.
Shelby Stanger:
I mean, my best friend is from Iran and just taking her on little hikes, it's a big deal, or camping or any of that. Taking her on a surf trip was the biggest deal, and her parents love it, and now they have surf hats and... Absolutely. But it was new at first, it was just different, it was new.
Nadah Feteih:
And I've always been fine with kind of pushing the envelope, never compromising our relationship and still prioritizing my family and making sure that I'm not pushing to a breaking point. And they've come around. My mom leads trips with us now. We do a whole segment of Ma'wa Collective called Ma'wa Mamas where we take woman 40-plus on these outdoor trips. My older sister joined the team last year, and she's been a godsend. She helps with a lot of the operations and finances, and now my little sister also was leading trips with us. So it's just become a family business at this point.
Shelby Stanger:
Amazing. Okay. Tell me about your mom leading Ma'wa Mamas.
Nadah Feteih:
She loves it. She loves it. And I think that's how I can get away with a lot of my crazy trips now is she loves the business.
Shelby Stanger:
So how did you get them outside and doing these trips with you?
Nadah Feteih:
Those are harder trips to sell, and I think I've always had those wild ideas where I can see the North Star and what this will look like 10 years from now, but convincing people of it now is rough. It's really hard, especially for these women who are immigrants who are coming to this country and don't know anybody and making friends at their ages now, maybe older kids have graduated and left the house and are living their own lives, but then also as a community, family is really important, and taking care of our elders is really important, and so I just believe so passionately about bringing these women on these trips where they can also have fun. They can do a little getaway, but I think that selflessness comes in where it's hard for them to justify paying for a trip like this, but the stories that we've heard from the mom's trips are incredible.
Shelby Stanger:
Can you tell me some, and can you tell me about one of the trips your mom has led?
Nadah Feteih:
Yeah, yeah. So my mom has led a number of trips already, and these women fly in from all over. There's one woman in her mid-forties who was divorced, and she said that because we do these cabin trips, it feels very homey. We cook our meals together, we go and we adventure together and hike together during the day. She was saying this was the first time she's had a home cooked meal or been around people that feel like family in maybe seven or eight years. Or a woman who lost her son, who passed away in a car accident a few years back, and it was something she was still grieving and processing and took a lot of courage for her to decide to do something for herself and to come on this trip. There was a mom who it was her birthday, it was her 60th birthday, I think, and so her kids wanted to surprise her, and so they got her this trip and one of her daughters had actually gone on another Ma'wa trip.
And so there's no other avenue or opportunity for these women to have done something like this. We are literally the only organization that's serving this community in this way, and if I, as this girl that was born and raised here in the U.S. and I'm American, and if I don't feel comfortable going with maybe just a secular group or with a group of other Americans, I can't imagine any of our moms just signing up for a woman's retreat somewhere if they don't speak English very well or the cultural religious differences would be a little harder to navigate.
Shelby Stanger:
What's the best advice you give people who've never done hiking or mountaineering to get outside?
Nadah Feteih:
I would say don't let self-doubt stop you from even trying out this thing that maybe you feel like you have an inclination or a desire to experience, and doing the prep work and figuring out what you need to do to do this successfully is really important. And I think as women, we second-guess ourselves, and I always say my biggest piece of advice is to be your own cheerleader. If you can't find the supporters or those people that are going to hype you up in pursuing the things you want to do, you got to just hype yourself up. And surround yourself with people that are already doing it. It's hard to go by yourself if it's really new, and so find community, find friends, drag your friends to go with you. There's so many organizations and spaces that have experts that can help bring you outdoors safely, and Ma'wa Collective is one of them. If there's any Muslim woman out there, please join us or find your local groups that are taking others on group hikes or group trips.
Shelby Stanger:
What advice would you give to someone wanting to live a bold wild life on their own terms?
Nadah Feteih:
Sometimes there's no precedent set for the bold wild ideas that you want to live out, and you need to find the confidence within yourself to pursue it regardless of whether you have mentors or supporters or there's an example or a role model out there for you. It's never a path that is easy, but it is worth it at the end, and I can honestly say feeling like I'm right in the middle of it, where every other day I feel like, "Why am I doing any of this? I could have lived such an easy life," but that is not a bold wild life that's worth living.
Shelby Stanger:
If you want to keep up with Nadah, follow her on Instagram, @nadahfeteih. That's N-A-D-A-H-F-E-T-E-I-H. Nadah recently ran her age in miles on her 29th birthday in San Diego, and it was so impressive to watch on social media. And if you're interested in collaborating or traveling with Ma'wa Collective, check them out on Instagram at M-A-W-A.collective. That's M-A-W-A.C-O-L-L-E-C-T-I-V-E.
Wild Ideas Worth Living is part of the REI podcast network. It's hosted by me, Shelby Stanger, produced by Annie Fassler, Sylvia Thomas, and Sam Peers Nitzberg of Puddle Creative. Our senior producers are Jenny Barber and Hannah Boyd. Our executive producers are Paolo Mottola and Joe Crosby. As always, we love it when you follow the show, take time to rate it and write a review wherever you listen, and remember, some of the best adventures happen when you follow your wildest ideas.