Marathon legend Des Linden made history on April 16, 2018, becoming the first American woman to win the Boston Marathon in 33 years. Over more than a decade at the top of the sport, she raced the biggest marathons in the world, represented the United States at the 2012 and 2016 Olympics, and set a 50K world record. Last year, on the morning of her 13th Boston Marathon, she announced her retirement from professional road racing. Now she is applying the same discipline and curiosity to new challenges, reshaping what a running life can look like beyond the marathon.
Marathon legend Des Linden made history on April 16, 2018, becoming the first American woman to win the Boston Marathon in 33 years. Over more than a decade at the top of the sport, she raced the biggest marathons in the world, represented the United States at the 2012 and 2016 Olympics, and set a 50K world record. Last year, on the morning of her 13th Boston Marathon, she announced her retirement from professional road racing. Now she is applying the same discipline and curiosity to new challenges, reshaping what a running life can look like beyond the marathon.
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Des Linden:
My favorite marathon has got to be the Boston Marathon. A lot of history there. Good memories.
Shelby Stanger:
On April 16, 2018, Des Linden became the first American woman to win the Boston Marathon in 33 years. Before this historic finish, Des had spent more than a decade building a career as one of the most accomplished runners in the country. She competed in elite marathon races, represented the US at the 2012 and 2016 Olympics, and set a world record for the 50K.
Last year on the morning of her 13th Boston Marathon, Des announced that she was officially retiring from professional road racing. And while she's stepping away from this specific type of running, she's already exploring some exciting wild ideas. I'm Shelby Stanger, and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living, an REI Co-op Studios production presented by Capital One and the REI Co-op Mastercard.
Des Linden, welcome to Wild Ideas Worth Living. I'm really excited to talk to a runner, a marathon runner, one of the most badass female marathon runners in the world of our time, and a fellow San Diegan. Very exciting for me.
Des Linden:
That's right. Yeah, it's a San Diego nugget that I think we have to latch onto for sure.
Shelby Stanger:
And you're a Padres fan, I've read.
Des Linden:
Yes, I try. It's tough. It's a tough job, but I'm keeping the faith, as they say.
Shelby Stanger:
And where are you based now?
Des Linden:
I'm in Charlevoix, Michigan.
Shelby Stanger:
How did you guys settle on Michigan?
Des Linden:
So I moved out to Michigan to join a team right out of college. And I remember my dad saying, "Don't meet a boy, get married and never come home." And I met my husband who's from Michigan and we got married and now I live here.
Shelby Stanger:
I loved reading about you because you just seem fun. You love music. You love bourbon. You love your dog. You love to run. And I'm curious, what about the marathon? What about 26.2 miles lured you in?
Des Linden:
Yeah, it was kind of accidental. To be honest, when I was in high school and college, it was like mile, 800 meters. 1,500, that's the sweet spot. Even the 5K felt a little long. And I remember in college my coach saying like, "Yeah, I think we're going to move you up to the 10." I was like, "I'll quit. Don't test me with that." But my last race, I think my senior year, he was like, "Okay, it's time," and it was too late to quit at that point.
So I ran the 10,000 meters and I ended up being second in the Pac-10 Conference, Pac-10 at the time. Yeah. So I was like, "Oh, maybe I'm okay at this." And that opened my eyes for one, just getting out of my own way, but two, what could I do in the longer distances? And then even stepping off the track and half-marathons and things like that, it's very talent oriented and I felt like the marathon is... It's a thinking game.
It's a little bit more chess than checkers. And so that was a big component that I really liked. There was just so much time out there, so much real estate to cover that you had to be... You could almost outsmart people and be more strategic. And those things really mattered beyond just talent and fitness. It was the mental side of the game that I found really intriguing with the marathon.
Shelby Stanger:
That's so interesting. I'm not a marathon runner. I'm like pretty much a classic. I did the 1500 in college and high school. But when I was reading your book, I didn't realize that in the marathon, there was so much strategy of like when you would speed up and when you would slow down and then you'd have to stay with the pack or not.
Des Linden:
Yeah. It's a lot of decision-making, which I think is what is really fun. I think you get into a number of these races and they take out the strategy with pacers. So you have like the London Marathon, the Berlin Marathon, Chicago Marathon. You just find your pacer, like how fast can I run this day, tuck in behind the group and turn your brain off.
But I've been really drawn to these strategic marathons that strategy is a big part of it. And that's Boston, New York. Olympic trials are just championship style races. And that to me adds another component of this is more than just a foot race. It's also a strategy game as well.
Shelby Stanger:
What were some of your strategies that you used? Because you have this incredible toughness that like a soccer player has and you're like a total badass. Is that kind of correct about your personality? I don't know.
Des Linden:
I still have a soccer player in me. That's what I grew up playing and wanted to be, but I was just too small of a package to be a soccer player. But I hate to lose, which is funny because I lost most of my career, but you have your little battles and I think I'm gritty and competitive. I think just the ability to work really hard is a huge boost in the marathon.
Being able to do more mileage is obviously advantageous for those late miles where it's a strength game. So I think that's helpful as well. Yeah, I think a lot of athletes have that. I don't know what the part is that separates me, but I think I like to think it's like maybe my mental strength and self-belief, and that's been built up over a lot of years.
Shelby Stanger:
In 2007, Des ran the Boston Marathon for the first time and she placed 19th. Just a year later, she finished fifth at the Chicago Marathon. From there, she went on to set her personal best at the world championships and compete twice in the Olympics. But in the back of her mind, Des dreamt of returning to Boston to win the whole thing. No American had won the woman's division of the Boston Marathon since 1985.
Des ran the race seven times before finally in 2018, she achieved her goal and took first place. Boston is especially magical for you. It holds a huge place in your heart. It's one of the biggest career wins for an American woman, let alone your career. You have such this strong affinity to Boston.
Des Linden:
Yeah. I debuted there in 2007, so it was my very first marathon and just getting that experience on such a magical course with so much history and the crowds get it and it's just a different feeling out there. So I think that immediately connected me to the race.
It was just like, oh, this is a place where you can do something special and the people really appreciate it. So I just kept going back year after year and was fortunate enough to be invited back. It's like a very tough professional field to be included in. I want to say eventually ended up doing 13 of them. I'm on 13 last year. So yeah, I put a lot of time in.
Shelby Stanger:
What's it like for those of us who haven't been there? I've been to New York. I've seen some other races. Obviously San Diego Marathon. I've never been to Boston. I mean, we all know what happened the year there was the bombings, but there just seems to be like this deep lore around Boston that there isn't around other marathons.
Des Linden:
It's definitely the history. I mean, I think it's the original marathon. It was modeled after the idea of the Olympic marathon. It was like, "That's really incredible. Why don't we do that?" And it's point to point. It's on this tough course. So there's all these little elements, and then you put in 150 years of history and you get a lot of stories. And so it just keeps growing and evolving and changing.
And so you just add yourself to that legacy and that story, which is really neat and unique. I think they're the World Marathon Majors. They're all pretty special. New York is exciting and obviously very important to the city. You get the fans out there. It has similar course and challenges and things like that, but just lacks that history that Boston was the first.
Shelby Stanger:
But it was also so interesting to read your book because I know marathons as like an everyday Joe running a marathon. I think very few people understand what it's like to race a marathon. It's so different just from how you train and how you show up and how you start to like when you're starting to take off from the pack. What was your most memorable Boston run?
Des Linden:
Oh, that's a tough question. I mean, I think the win in '18 has to be the top, right? Not only was it winning on the day, which is going to be a standout, but the weather conditions were just insane. It was unlike anything else most people had raced in. It was one of those days that you would look outside and be like, "Yeah, I'm going to take a day off. I'm not going outside."
It's 40 degrees torrential downpour, just sheets of water coming down in a headwind. It's a point to point course. So you basically drive 26.2 miles out to the start and then you run back in one direction and that happened to be into a headwind. So it was memorable in that respect because just iconic images of it and it looked brutal, so challenging. And then it changed the strategy quite a bit because typically, how do you run the legs off your competitor?
Where do you push? When do you make a break? And everything just condensed. It was like, wait, wait, wait, you want to make your move at the last second possible. And so it got slower and slower, which was very different too. And then all kinds of crazy things happened that day just that matched the weather.
Shelby Stanger:
Many of the runners in the 2018 Boston Marathon were unprepared for the brutal weather. They weren't ready for the cold and relentless rain, and some were forced to drop out due to hypothermia. But Des had trained in miserable Michigan weather, and she came ready with the right gear for the downpour. All she had to do was focus on her mental game. What do you say to yourself when you're freezing cold and it absolutely sucks, but you could win?
Des Linden:
Yeah. I mean, it was a mixed bag throughout the day. I think early on it was very much like, don't dig yourself into a bigger hole by trying to force this to happen when it's clearly a day that is going to be brutal and take more out of you from a recovery standpoint. So that was the thought process early. I think midway, we just had a really great group of Americans in the field that year, and it seemed like we were due for an American win.
So my thought process was like, how can I help these other athletes have their day? And so it was definitely a mindset shift where I was working in service of other people and it really allowed me to not dwell on how I felt or how bad it was. And that evolved to late in the race where I realized actually I felt probably better than anybody else. And then it was just instinctual, "Oh yeah, let's just go racing."
Shelby Stanger:
What about your mental game, like mantras, tracking?
Des Linden:
I always give my mantra and it's really practical. I've heard some really cool ones, like my friend Amy used to say, "I breathe in strength, I breathe out weakness." And I was like, "Holy, shit, that is profound." I can't imagine thinking that clearly in a race. I just say, "Calm, calm, calm, relax, relax, relax," but you say it in a calm and relaxing voice. And head to toe body check of like, is my jaw relaxed or am I clenching my teeth?
Where are my shoulders? Are they up in my ears or do I need to relax them? And just do a checklist head to toe as I say that and then start from the top when you get to the end. And it keeps you a little bit more present. And I think when we are trying to force things is when we really start to tie up and tense up, and that's not fast running, that's forcing it.
Shelby Stanger:
Professional marathoner Des Linden is one of the most legendary runners in the world. She's famous for being the first American woman in 33 years to win the Boston Marathon. Her dedication to this sport and to the course in Boston in particular has earned her a loyal fan base. But after 18 years of professional marathon racing, Des decided it was time for a change. You retired from professional marathon running quite recently. When did you know you're ready to finally retire from it?
Des Linden:
Yeah, I think it's always kind of like in the air floating around like maybe I could keep doing it, but I think I'd stagnated and I wasn't going to get better. I wasn't going to get more competitive, and the front of the races were just getting faster. So I wanted to give myself one more big effort to just see what can I do when I'm all in. And I feel like a lot of that was letting go of the next one, the next one, or next time I'll...
So having that eliminated and just being like, "This is it," really allowed me to push on that last one. But yeah, I mean, I think there's a balance of... It's like a dignity thing where you're like, "I want to do this well. I don't want to do it just because I'm okay at it. I want to be great at it," and that's behind me. So it was figuring out that balance.
Shelby Stanger:
That takes a lot of humility.
Des Linden:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
How did that decision come about? I'm curious. And you announced your retirement in a pretty epic way, so I'd love for you to share that story. But how did you decide, okay, this is time, this is going to be my last one? And when you made that decision, how did you feel? Because that means that this identity that you've had for many years as like one of the best female marathon runners in the world is going to be a different identity after that.
Des Linden:
Yeah. I mean, I think the identity piece had already shifted, right? It was already like, okay, I used to be one of the best marathoners in the world and now I'm good, but I'm not a contender, right? So it was already pretty clear. And yeah, I mean, I think knowing that and being at peace with that was pretty important, but also wanting to go out in my own terms.
I think one thing that I was able to do was have this conversation with my sponsor, Brooks, and go through the Olympic year, try to make a team, try to finish top 10 other trials, have big goals, and then not get to the end of that contract year and have them be like, "Okay, your career's done because you don't have support anymore." We had the conversation. It was like, "We want to keep supporting you."
And I said, "I kind of feel like I'm at the end of this part of my career," and they were comfortable with that. And so we were able to create new contract and new adventures and new things for me to chase that I'm passionate about, but it gave me the opportunity to leave the sport in my terms, which I think is really rare and unusual. And I'm really happy that Brooks gave me the opportunity to do that.
Shelby Stanger:
When you announced your retirement, tell us what you did.
Des Linden:
So for the announcement, I didn't tell anyone prior and we took out a full page ad in The Boston Globe, just like the hometown paper, and I thought it was a nice letter to the fans of Boston and the people that were in town. It was a place that so much of my career happened. I was able to debut there. In 2011, I was runner up by two seconds and the community embraced it and got a lot of fans after that.
So every time I went back, it just felt like there was a really good connection in that city. And obviously the win just felt a little bit bigger because it wasn't mine. It was something that so many people had watched and followed for so long. It was like, "We did this." And so yeah, it felt like the right way to say goodbye as well.
Shelby Stanger:
You have so many fans. If you watch videos of you winning Boston in 2018, announcing your retirement, people love you. And I think it's because you're so genuine. You're so authentic in a sport that has had some controversy and you keep showing up. Even if you're not your second, you're going to keep going. And then when you got first, everybody just was so stoked. And then your announcement was also so authentic, which is really cool.
I interview a lot of athletes that have done a big wild idea or like Olympians and afterwards there's kind of this like depression after you've achieved this huge wild idea. And for many years, winning Boston was like your wild idea. So you won it and then you got to like keep going, which is awesome. You just had continued success, success. But has there been any like, I don't know, lull or like let down or weird feeling shifts in the last year since retiring from the marathon officially?
Des Linden:
Yeah. I feel like the biggest moment will be in Boston this year, like going back as an ambassador and watching passively, but I'll also have some fun stuff lined up. I'm going to jump in and run with my husband, and I think it'll make me wrap my mind around this is different. It's not gone, it's not done, it's just different. You can still participate in running, enjoy the process, be at races. It might not be what it was, but it still can be great in a new way.
Shelby Stanger:
But isn't that nice? I used to want to puke before even a cross country race. Now you don't have to have that nervousness. You can just enjoy it.
Des Linden:
It's a mixed thing. I feel like that was one of the things that was missing by the end of my career. And you don't realize how unique and special that is, which sounds silly, but it's so great to be in a position to be able to be nervous and excited and have those jitters. And it's pretty limited. So to me it was like when that was gone, that was like, okay, this doesn't feel as exciting anymore.
Shelby Stanger:
Now that Des has retired from professional marathoning, she finally has the time to chase a few new wild ideas. She's trading pavement for dirt and turning her focus to trail running. Her first big test is the legendary Marathon des Sables in Morocco. She'll be racing across the Sahara Desert in temperatures that can reach 120 degrees. So what's next for you? I feel like ultra running, trail running has caught your attention.
Des Linden:
Yes, but I think immediately what I do have planned this year is MDS, Marathon des Sables, and it's a stage race in Morocco in the Sahara Desert, self-supported. You're carrying all your own stuff. And I think it's just so foreign relative to everything I've done that it's going to force me to think differently, train differently, prepare differently. And that's what I need right now is to just step away from the marathon and try something completely new.
Shelby Stanger:
I'm so excited for you. So you're going from repeats on a road or track to training for some crazy race where you have to carry your own water and food in Morocco in the Saharan Desert. So what do you think you're going to bring?
Des Linden:
I have no idea. That'll be the big question is like how much do you want to carry? And then it's figuring out calories. You have to have enough calories to figure out the whole week, but you're carrying it. Would you rather have a deck of playing cards to kill time or do you want three more Stroopwafels so you're not starving?
Shelby Stanger:
Wow. And so you're not going to bring a stove because that's extra weight too.
Des Linden:
I won't bring a stove. I think you're going to take advantage of the Sahara Desert and its heat and have lukewarm food that's freeze-dried. You add the water and sit it out in the sun for a bit.
Shelby Stanger:
So what are you doing to train for this?
Des Linden:
Yeah, right now just getting into things. A lot of mileage. I think mileage will be a big thing. I'm going to run Black Canyon 50K as a prep race, MidSouth 50K as a prep race. And I think it's going to be a little bit more of back to back long run type situations and then really specific things of like heat training obviously using sauna, running when it's warm, wearing layers, and then course specific stuff of like, where's a sandy road that we can run on and reps in the sand. So pace won't be what it typically is, but just getting ready for all those variables.
Shelby Stanger:
And you're going to run in Morocco in April. It's going to be really hot.
Des Linden:
Yeah. Right now I've been doing most of the running on the treadmill in the garage with the heater on. So working up a sweat, nice and warm in there, and then you do sauna for slowly adding it up, but starting at like 15 to 20 minutes after that run. Yeah, just getting used to it.
Shelby Stanger:
Is this so fun for you because it's so different?
Des Linden:
Yeah. I mean, I think it's great. I haven't been this excited for a race in a long time. It's the nerves again. You're like, well, I don't know what could happen out there. It's going to be challenging. It's going to be difficult. I don't know what to expect. And so I can't wait to head out to the desert and just be a little bit afraid about what is to come.
Shelby Stanger:
What are you going to wear?
Des Linden:
Yeah. So that gear is such a big part of it. One outfit for the full thing and then picking the right pack will be important. And I'm still not 10% sure on shoes, but then we'll get those fashioned with gaiters where you have to actually have to take them in and have the gaiters sewn on. Because if you do Velcro and glue, it'll melt is what I hear. It's pretty warm out there.
Shelby Stanger:
The gaiters for sand?
Des Linden:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
Oh, so you're not running with like 10 pounds of sand in your shoe?
Des Linden:
Hopefully not. Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
This sounds so interesting. And there happens to be a sandy road by you?
Des Linden:
We'll head down to Florida and there's some spots down there, but I do kind of feel like there's probably some snow crossover. Like if you're running in the deep snow, you're getting sort of that slip is what I'm telling myself.
Shelby Stanger:
I love this. It sounds so intense. So how are you choosing these next events?
Des Linden:
Yeah, I think that one was interesting. I feel like it's been on my radar for a long time. It's like marketed as the toughest foot race in the world. So I'm just a sucker for the marketing and I was like, "What's the craziest thing I can do? That one. I'm doing it." But my good friend Magdalena Lewy-Boulet actually won that.
It used to be a UTMB qualifying race, so I'm just intrigued by it. And I also feel like because it's so different from the marathon, it just pulls me out of familiarity, right? This is something that's new, I'm excited, I don't know what I'm getting into, and that's fun. It's been what's missing about the marathon feeling so familiar.
Shelby Stanger:
If you want to keep up with Des and see more about her adventures, follow her on Instagram @des_linden. That's D-E-S underscore L-I-N-D-E-N. Wild Ideas Worth Living is part of the REI Podcast Network. It's hosted by me, Shelby Stanger, produced by Annie Fassler, Sylvia Thomas, and Sam Pierce Nitzberg of Puddle Creative. Our senior producer is Jenny Barber.
Our executive producers are Paolo Mottola and Joe Crosby. Thanks again to our partner, Capital One and the REI Co-op Mastercard. As always, we love it when you follow the show, take time to rate it, and write a review wherever you listen. And remember, some of the best adventures happen when you follow your wildest ideas.