Joseph Mulherin is a musician known by his stage name nothing,nowhere. Since he was a kid, he's struggled with an anxiety and panic disorder. But he's found that being out in nature is a salve for his mental health.
Joseph Mulherin is known by his stage name nothing,nowhere. He’s a musician who has worked with celebrities like Travis Barker from Blink 182 and Pete Wentz from Fallout Boy. Joe has an incredible fan base, but things haven’t always been easy for him. Since he was a kid, Joe has struggled with an anxiety and panic disorder. But he’s found that being out in nature and practicing bushcraft skills can be a real salve for his mental health. On this show, Joe talks about how music, meditation, and getting outside have made a powerful impact on his life.
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Shelby Stanger:
The presenting sponsor for this season of Wild Ideas Worth Living is Ford. Their 2021 Ford Bronco Sport is the SUV that'll get you to your outdoor adventures. It's an off-road SUV built for the thrill seeker, the sightseer and the day tripper. This SUV has many available features to help you get to your destination. With enough ground clearance, off-roading capabilities and purposeful design that includes easy to clean surfaces and plenty of interior space, this SUV is your gateway to the outdoors. The Ford Bronco Sport is equipped to help you get out there to the mountain ranges, the woodland trails and to the coast. You can learn more about what the Bronco Sport has to offer at ford.com or in our show notes.
Shelby Stanger:
Joseph Mulherin is known by his stage name, nothing,nowhere. He performs alternative emo music in front of thousands of diehard fans. The crowd is wild for him. They scream along with his lyrics, piled together as they crowd surf and jump to the beat of his music. His concerts are so high energy that sometimes there's even sweat dripping from the ceiling. No matter how amped up the crowd is, the vibe backstage is pretty much the opposite though. Joe experiences a severe anxiety disorder, and he does everything he can to ground himself and connect with nature. Before the show, he sips on green tea and he plays a wooden flute.
Joe Mulherin:
[Plays wooden flute.] Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
I love that. It's so relaxing.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah. It's like the ultimate calm.
Shelby Stanger:
I'm Shelby Stanger, and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living. Joseph Mulherin started making music when he was 12, but his career got serious after college. He was living in his parents' basement and he uploaded a couple of tracks to SoundCloud. From there he was picked up by a record label. Now he's worked with big names like Travis Barker from Blink-182 and Pete Wentz from Fall Out Boy. But things haven't always been smooth sailing for Joe. When he was seven years old, Joe started having panic attacks. These episodes weren't brought on by anything in particular. Sometimes he was just sitting in a chair with no external stressors and he'd suddenly have trouble breathing. Even now, sometimes Joe still gets panic attacks that are so intense he can't get out on stage. But over the years, Joe's found outlets that help him cope with his mental health challenges, including music and spending time outside.
Shelby Stanger:
Joe, welcome to Wild Ideas Worth Living.
Joe Mulherin:
What's up? Thanks for having me.
Shelby Stanger:
All the way from Vermont.
Joe Mulherin:
All the way.
Shelby Stanger:
Deep Vermont.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah, couldn't be deeper in Vermont.
Shelby Stanger:
A lot of my guests are athletes, mountain climbers. They've made a career out of like breaking records for running a race or doing something crazy in the outdoors, but you have this really different, beautiful story. So maybe you could tell me a little bit how as an emo rap artist you have this giant relationship with the outdoors and how that came to be.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah. I feel like it's no secret that musicians and creative minds, it's like we definitely struggle with our fair share of mental illness and mental struggles. I mean, it's just when you have that type of sensitive mindset and brain, it's like you feel things very deeply. I think that this is something that really I noticed when I was younger, when I started having panic attacks in the second grade. Really intense ones, not really knowing what was happening. I don't think anyone knew what was happening because I didn't really have the words to describe it or whatever. So, yeah. I mean, growing up was really struggling with that, and it was really a difficult childhood navigating anxiety and depression at a very young age. Because when you're a kid, you're supposed to not worry about things. You're supposed to play with worms and play in a sandbox. You shouldn't be having panic attacks. Yeah, I mean, the way that being outdoors and in nature and music has helped me is it's always been my safe place and it's always forced me to stay in the present moment. It's been just that Zen that my brain needs because my brain is always running at 10,000 miles an hour asking myself "What if, what if, what if?" When I step out onto the trail, I step out into the woods, there's nothing else that exists. It's just the soft whisper of the trees and the wind, and it's the crunching of the leaves under your feet. From a young age, I realized that was probably the most beneficial prescription I could possibly have. And to this day, you know what I mean, that's what saves me, and that's a big part as to why I don't live in the city and why I live where I live now. You know?
Shelby Stanger:
Yeah. I completely relate and understand, and I appreciate you for sharing that. I'm just curious. What did social anxiety look like at seven years old?
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
An anxiety attack.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah. I mean, it was just, I guess the doctors thought I had asthma because I couldn't breathe when I would start. My heart would start racing, and I couldn't breathe. And I'd be nauseous or throwing up. For a long time, doctors weren't really sure what was going on with me. My mom, thankfully, is a nurse, and she started to catch on to what was going on. I think that's one thing that I don't think maybe people really understand about anxiety, is people will be like, "Oh, I'm, I'm anxious because I have a job interview tomorrow," or "I'm anxious because I have to have this conversation tomorrow." But I think anxiety and if you have a real panic disorder, there's no tangible event that's going to cause it. I remember my first panic attack. I'm just sitting there, and my adrenaline spikes and my brain convinces me that I'm probably going to die. And then your neurons fire faster than your average person's neurons would. So, I mean, when I was younger, yeah, this was happening and just thankfully figured it out and discovered meditation and being outdoors. I know my dad was a huge advocate for getting me and my sister outside, teaching us how to make fires, teaching us survival skills.
Shelby Stanger:
Talk to me really quickly about the music you play and how you got into music.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah. I mean, I've been into music since I was a little kid. My dad really put me on to punk music. He listened to The Clash and Iggy Pop and all this rad stuff, and my mom was a disco dance teacher. So there was just always music around.
Shelby Stanger:
Wow.
Joe Mulherin:
I discovered alternative music when I was in like third grade, shortly after I started having these panic attacks. It was like an aha moment for me because I heard these dudes being real and raw and honest in their work. It made me feel like it's okay to feel the way that I was feeling as a little kid. I remember hearing Linkin Park and hearing Hybrid Theory, and it just quite literally changing my life. So not long after that, I went to my cousin's house and she was learning guitar, and I went to one of her guitar lessons. I heard her instructor play Crazy Train by Ozzy Osborne on guitar, and to me that was like magic, so I knew that I had to learn how to do that. I was like, "I don't know what this guy is doing, but I need to learn how to do it." My mom started driving me to the local music shop, and I started playing guitar at 12.
Shelby Stanger:
So when I read about your music, they described it as like emo rap. Is that how you describe it?
Joe Mulherin:
I don't think that's how I describe it. I just think it's how people describe when they hear like guitar and electronic drums on the same track. It's pretty vulnerable, and it sounds like 2021 Warped Tour maybe, like what it would sound like now. But I grew up listening to that Warped Tour stuff. It's just what I grew up on, and it's like in my DNA. I'll never escape that. So I just, I tell people I make experimental music, I don't know, or alternative.
Shelby Stanger:
I like that. You make vulnerable experimental music.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
And what sort of things do you sing about?
Joe Mulherin:
Just how sad I am. No, I'm just kidding. I just like talking about what's going on with me, and I like being honest. I try to do what those musicians did for me when I was younger. I just try to be real, and I try to keep it honest, and say like, "Hey, I've been having a bad week, and I'm going to make a song about it. I'm going to write a song about how I didn't want to get out of bed today." Because I felt like it was a gift that those musicians were giving me when I was younger. To be able to be in that position now for other people and to be honest about how I feel. And to say that mental health and, it's not like an overnight thing. It's an every day you got to take it one step at a time and one day at a time. I just like to be real in my music, and I think I've created a little cool community with my fan base through the honesty.
Shelby Stanger:
Joe has an incredible fan base, and he's created a one-of-a-kind community. He's always wanted to support his fans the same way he felt supported by his favorite musicians growing up. Recently, Joe decided to start a YouTube channel called Into the Trauma Factory. It's inspired by the name of his new album. The videos show Joe practicing bushcraft skills. If you're unfamiliar, bushcraft is really cool. It's the art of survival and wilderness skills. It's doing things like starting a fire without matches, building primitive shelters and foraging and hunting for food. In one video, Joe ventures into the snowy Vermont woods, and he builds a fire to make tea. He sits cross-legged in the snow, and he answers questions about real-life struggles from his fans. Joe draws on his experience with meditation and philosophy. These are methods that have helped him calm his mind over the years, and he shares this knowledge and insight with his fans.
Shelby Stanger:
You have this video and a web series and a new album, Trauma Factory. You released it in February. Where did that name come from?
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah, Trauma Factory. I decided to call the record Trauma Factory just because I feel like that was kind of a synonym for human life. I mean, not in like a dystopian, through a pessimistic lens or anything. I just think that suffering is a part of life, trauma is a part of life, and there is beauty in that because everyone suffers, everyone experiences trauma. When you realize that, you can treat others with empathy and compassion and you can treat others like your fellow sufferers. And you can not lash out at people and not judge people because you understand truthfully that people are ... You know, the guy at the grocery store could have a bad diagnosis or something like that. You just never, ever know. And to me, Trauma Factory is a synonym for life, in a good way.
Shelby Stanger:
Where does it come from? Does it come from Buddhism or reading?
Joe Mulherin:
Yes. Yeah. I'm very, very, I don't really define myself as a Buddhist or anything like that, but I'm just really into the story of Siddhartha and Buddhism and Lao-Tzu and Taoism, obviously all of the Eastern philosophies. And that one of the main staples in Buddhism is suffering is a part of life, and once you realize that, I mean, you can kind of be free.
Shelby Stanger:
How did you get into meditation?
Joe Mulherin:
I think the first time I ever meditated, I was in high school and I was living with my parents, obviously. I was in our backyard and it was a nice warm day. And I did a Tonglen meditation. It was like a Tibetan monk was kind of doing a guided one. I remember doing it and just kind of for the first time ever, I was truly in one spot and I wasn't worrying about the future and I wasn't thinking about the past. I remember just crying after because I'd never checked in with myself at that capacity, and I've never delved into the inner workings of what's going on. Just when you finally realize really what's happening in your mind, it's kind of overwhelming. Yeah, so I just remember crying. It was such a powerful moment just feeling the sun on the crown of my head, and I was like, "How can I not do this now?" That was a wrap. And that was in high school, and I've just been doing it ever since.
Shelby Stanger:
What does your meditation practice look like?
Joe Mulherin:
When I'm going hard and I'm doing it, I ideally would love to be doing it every day, but I'm a human being and I fall off. But when I'm doing it every day, I wake up, just kind of do gratitude. And I thank the creator of whatever that is, that might be different for anyone, for another day. And I try and make a promise to myself and the universe that I'll treat others with empathy and compassion and stay grateful. I just do 15 to 30 minutes in the morning of Tonglen meditation, which is breathing in positive thoughts, exhaling the negative thoughts. I have my music on, my incense, and it just grounds me for the day. It's like, "Okay, another day on earth as a human being, and what are we going to do in this incarnation?"
Shelby Stanger:
Is there any books that really influenced you that you read? I mean, you mentioned Siddartha.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah. I'd say like overall the main book for me, anyone listening, that I would wholeheartedly recommend is the Tao Te Ching by Lao-Tzu. That is kind of how I want to live my life, and it's kind of my compass to how I want to treat others. It's such an easy read, and it's just zingers. Guy was spitting facts. I mean, I guess he went into a cave, and as he was going to leave and become a hermit in the mountains, the guard at the gate of the town asked him to write a book about life. And the Tao Te Ching is that.
Shelby Stanger:
Even though Joe has resources that help him cope with his anxiety, the pressure of performing in front of a live crowd, it can be intense. When we come back, Joe talks about the rituals he uses to stay calm and grounded on tour, how he makes his own maple syrup and where he finds his inspiration.
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Shelby Stanger:
For eight months a year, Joe and his band tour the world performing his music. But he isn't your average celebrity. There's the stereotypical rock star lifestyle, sex, drinking, drugs, that Joe totally stays away from. Joe is straight edge, which means he doesn't drink or do drugs. He's also a vegan, and he loves going out to vegan restaurants wherever he is on tour. When he's not on the road, he comes back to his house in the countryside and doubles down on centering himself and getting outside.
Shelby Stanger:
I mean you're kind of like a rockstar, so that's not always the easiest world to navigate. But it seems like you're doing it really well.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah, I guess I kind of had to flip the script a lot with the whole rock band touring thing. Like the green room is not strippers and drugs; it's green tea and meditation.
Shelby Stanger:
I read that you're straight edge and vegan. Is that still true?
Joe Mulherin:
Yes, that is correct. Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
So what's straight edge? What does that even mean?
Joe Mulherin:
I guess, straight edge was coined in the hardcore punk scene. I guess, really by like Ian MacKaye and Minor Threat back in the day where it was in a culture that was dominated by substance abuse and that sort of escapism and self-destructive behavior. It became the counterculture to be like, quote/unquote, "straight edge." When I was younger, seeing that in shows and it just really spoke to me. I wasn't really interested in that alternative lifestyle that my peers were living. Which I mean, and it's not to say I don't care if anyone does anything. People can do whatever they want. Just for me, it just works super well, so I don't drink or smoke or do anything like that, really.
Shelby Stanger:
And you're vegan. Is this a new thing or have you always been vegan?
Joe Mulherin:
I've been vegan for 10 years, going on 11 years, yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
Wow.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
Good on you.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah. Yeah, so I'm slowly becoming a monk, I guess.
Shelby Stanger:
Oh, my partner's been vegan for 20 years. He looks like a baby and he's 55, so there you go.
Joe Mulherin:
That's killer. Yeah, there you go.
Shelby Stanger:
Yeah.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
I can't say I'm vegan. I try, but-
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah, that's-
Shelby Stanger:
I think that's so ... But you have lots of animals on your farm or your property.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah. I mean, I just have chickens right now, but, I mean, I really want more. It's just that it comes down to once touring kicks up again, I'm going to have to get like a handler or something.
Shelby Stanger:
I've also read that you tap your own maple syrup?
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah. I think I got into maple sugaring like four years ago. Pretty much, you find a sugar maple or a red maple, and it's better to identify them in the fall so you can see the leaves, otherwise you're going to be scratching your head in the winter. February, mid-February, tap your trees. I guess you just take a three-sixteenths bit, drill like an inch and a half into the tree. Then you take a hammer and tap metal spouts into the tree, and then you hang a bucket on it. So when it gets to a point where it's below freezing at night and then the days are above freezing, which is kind of late February, March, the tree's getting ready for the spring. So it's bringing all the sap up into leaves, and a lot of it'll just drip out into the bucket.
Shelby Stanger:
Mmm.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah. You just go out and collect all the buckets, pour it into your collection tank, and then you bring it to an evaporator or a boiler. Then you put some logs in there, and you just boil it all day until the viscosity gets to a point of syrup. You're just boiling the water off of it. Sap just looks like water, and it tastes mildly sweet until you boil it down to syrup. It's just a rad thing to do. It's just funny to tell people you do it, especially in music, because people, my friends who live in LA and stuff, they're like, "What is that?" It's just fun.
Shelby Stanger:
Well, you're a maker, and there's got to be something so deeply satisfying about being able to make your own food but also something that's sweet that you can share with others.
Joe Mulherin:
That's the best part, is sharing it with others. I mean, believe me, I could put down some maple syrup myself. But, I mean, to go to your neighbor's house and be like, "Hey, I harvested this for you," is a really special thing, I feel like.
Shelby Stanger:
Aw.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
You sound like you're a really good neighbor. So you make maple syrup, you take care of your chickens and you love spending time in the woods. Do you have any crazy stories of being out in the wilderness?
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah, well, for whatever reason, I have a lot of bear encounters. First time I ever had a bear encounter, we were camping in the White Mountains. I was with my friend, and I remember being in the tent and just my friend waking me up violently. Like, "Dude, there's something outside." I was like, "It's probably a raccoon or something, man. Go back to sleep." And he's like, "It's not a raccoon." I was like, "All right." I fell back asleep. He woke me up again, and he's like, "You got to listen to this." We heard something sniffing around, like poking. You could see the indent in the tent. It was really sniffing in because we were idiots and had food in the tent. We would-
Shelby Stanger:
Oh, no.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah. We were so dumb and ...
Shelby Stanger:
It's okay. I would've done the same thing, probably gotten eaten alive.
Joe Mulherin:
So I was like, "All right, I'm going to look." We ended up taking the first layer out and looking out the screen, and sure enough, it was a black bear right there trying to get into the tent. Long story short, I stayed up for the next four hours, just heart racing, maybe slept 30 minutes. And woke up the next morning, and the whole site was just torn apart.
Shelby Stanger:
Did you make noise?
Joe Mulherin:
No, because that's the thing. I mean, I'm sure there's plenty of people maybe on the podcast that know more. But me, I'm just a musician who happens to like outdoor stuff, so I'm not well versed in what to do when a bear rolls up. Every time I've seen one, I've just either stood still or just ran. But I don't know if that's the right thing to do.
Shelby Stanger:
I feel like that's exactly what you're not supposed to do, but I don't know. I'm not an expert either. I just thought you were supposed to like get big and make noise.
Joe Mulherin:
I'm still here, so ...
Shelby Stanger:
Yes. Yeah, obviously it worked.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
That is so wild.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
Did that bear encounter, I mean, does that influence your music? How does that influence your life after going through something like that?
Joe Mulherin:
I think in the grand scheme of things, it's like it gives you a reverence and respect for the power of nature and just how fragile human body and it can be. I mean, we like to pretend like we're at the top of the food chain. I mean, we're really not. Left to our own devices, we don't have anything to defend ourselves. I think having the respect for nature and the power of nature has influenced my music in just weird ways, I guess. Like being outside and realizing how fragile we are and vulnerable we are, it kind of destroys your ego in a way. I think it's a really humbling experience to be out in nature, knowing that anything could kill you at any moment. It's just humbling. It's an ego destroyer.
Shelby Stanger:
Whether he's homesteading in Vermont or encountering bears in the woods, Joe feels his best when he's outside. Connecting with nature helps him manage his anxiety, and it also pushes him to question topics like ego, inspiration and celebrity. Where do you get your inspiration?
Joe Mulherin:
There's been a Lot of artists in the past that say they just kind of channel this thing or something else tells them what to write. I feel like that, almost like being a conduit or an antenna to something else, because I don't think I'm doing it. Not to get too esoteric or whatever, but I just feel like it's something else sometimes because it's just always been there.
Shelby Stanger:
I think that's a good way to be, though. If you have a muse that tells you these things, one, it takes pressure off yourself, but, two, it's kind of a beautiful thing.
Joe Mulherin:
Totally. Yeah. I think that's the biggest thing, is to not put pressure on yourself because I've certainly struggled with that. I'm always self-critical and self-conscious about everything I do. Like I'll make a song or I'll make something, and in the past I've always been like, "This isn't good. Why am I even doing this?" I remember quitting music a couple of times when I was younger because I was just like, "This is probably no good." But when you start to view it as like you're a conduit and you're just taking in this energy and you're just expressing pure inspiration, it kind of takes that weight off of you.
Shelby Stanger:
A lot of being an artist is managing self-doubt.
Joe Mulherin:
Oh, god.
Shelby Stanger:
Which is not an easy thing because every artist deals with it.
Joe Mulherin:
The self-doubt is the biggest, you know what I mean? I listen to a lot of podcasts too, and I think more artists should be honest and open about the self-doubt thing. I know a lot are, but it's such a massive thing. I feel like I made my best work when I just didn't ask for a second opinion. Or I just put it out there and then like, yeah, it's just for whatever reason. Having that voice that says, "You're not good enough," or "This isn't good enough," or having imposter syndrome, you know. I vividly remember being at one of my idol's, Travis Barker from Blink-182, being at his house and recording an EP with him. And the entire time, just my brain screaming at me like, "This is a fluke. You don't deserve to be here." It's just that doubting mind that I think needs constant taming almost.
Shelby Stanger:
How do you tell your mind to shut the F up when it's doing that?
Joe Mulherin:
I just think it's about positive self-talk. Like, would you say the things that you're saying to yourself to someone else? Absolutely not. That's one of the main things that I realized. This is another thing that meditation has helped me with is like, I'll hear that voice that says, "This isn't good. This is a fluke. You don't deserve this," and I'll be like, "Okay, I hear what you're saying. Thanks. Now eff off. Thank you for your opinion, but I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing."
Shelby Stanger:
Good for you. That's empowering to be able to tell that voice to be quiet because that's not real. It's not true. So advice to those dealing with anxiety. You've dealt with it and you're dealing with it. And in a public way you're dealing with it, which I commend you on. That's awesome and noble and not easy.
Joe Mulherin:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
What have you learned on your journey?
Joe Mulherin:
I guess some of the main points would be it's an uphill struggle kind of. You're going to have good days, you're going to have bad days. I mean, even just yesterday, I started having some anxiety, you know what I mean?
Joe Mulherin:
I think it's about regimenting yourself and making sure that you're staying on top of being active, meditate, just get outside into the woods if you have access to that. I completely understand not all people have access to that, unfortunately, but yeah, just stay in the present moment. I'd say the biggest thing for me is meditation and regimenting my day at some capacity, you know what I mean? Just make sure that I get out of bed. Sometimes it's the little victories: you sat up, you got out of bed, you ate breakfast. And it's about celebrating those small victories because not everyone is able to operate at the same speed. Oftentimes when you have a mental illness, it's like, you can't do the things that a normal person can. Sometimes going to the grocery store is like going to the Olympics or something. It's just being kind to yourself. And like even now, and if you fall off the wagon with your meditation or whatever, because God knows I have, and you forgive yourself.
Shelby Stanger:
From being a seven-year-old who struggled with panic attacks to becoming a beloved artist with record deals, I find Joe's story inspiring. Even when he's out on tour for more than half the year, it's remarkable that Joe stays so in tune with nature. It also takes serious guts to be honest with yourself about self-doubt and the realities of living a life of creativity. So, Joe, I really appreciate your honesty. Thank you so much for coming on the show, and I'm really excited to one day try some of your homemade maple syrup. Joe's new album Trauma Factory is out now and available on your favorite music platforms. His video series called Into the Trauma Factory is available on YouTube. You can learn more about Joe and his next performance at nothingnowhere.net. You can also follow him on social media at Nothing, Nowhere. That's N-O-T-H-I-N-G-N-O-W-H-E-R-E.
Shelby Stanger:
Wild Ideas Worth Living is part of the REI podcast network, is hosted by me, Shelby Stanger, written and edited by Sylvia Thomas and produced by Chelsea Davis. Our executive producers are Paolo Mottola and Joe Crosby, and our presenting sponsor this season is Ford. If you want to find me, I'm on Instagram at @ShelbyStanger. I also have a new podcast called Vitamin Joy. As always, we all appreciate when you follow the show, rate it and take two minutes to write a review wherever you listen to this show. And whatever you do, remember some of the best adventures often happen when you follow your wildest ideas.