Ultramarathon runner Lesford Duncan finds freedom on mountain tops and forest trails, and he wants everyone to find that feeling for themselves.
When he’s not running, Lesford is the Senior Director of Programs at Outdoor Outreach, an organization that connects kids to the transformative power of nature. It’s not just about surfing or climbing — Outdoor Outreach teaches them about sustainability and advocacy. When these kids spend time outside, they’re discovering new passions, building confidence and connecting with peers and mentors.
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Shelby Stanger:
Lesford Duncan, welcome to Wild Ideas Worth Living.
Lesford Duncan:
Thanks so much for having me on, Shelby.
Shelby Stanger:
Thanks for coming over in person because I miss in person interviews, and this is like a joy.
Lesford Duncan:
I know. We've been, what, a year and a half without human contact? So it was great, and it was great walking down the beach with you this morning also. Solana Beach is so amazing.
Shelby Stanger:
Ultra marathon runner, Lesford Duncan, lives in San Diego. So before this interview, we took a little surf check walk. Prior to the pandemic, I often spent time with guests before we sat down to record. During our brief walk this morning, I could sense that Lesford radiates a reflective and soothing presence. You can hear it in his voice. Lesford has always loved connecting with nature. He finds freedom on mountaintops, in forest trails, and he wants everyone to find that feeling for themselves. When he's not running, Lesford is the senior director of programs at Outdoor Outreach. They're an organization that connects kids to the transformative power of nature.
Shelby Stanger:
I'm Shelby Stanger, and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living. If you're a long time listener to the podcast, you may remember an episode from 2018 where we talked to four Outdoor Outreach alums about how the program changed their lives. Outdoor Outreach does an incredible job creating access to the outdoors for kids who just don't have as many opportunities to engage with nature. But it's not just about taking kids surfing or rock climbing. Outdoor Outreach also teaches them about sustainability and they encourage advocacy. For Lesford, this mission runs deep. He didn't grow up in a stereotypically outdoorsy family, but getting outside had a huge impact on his life and his mental health.
Shelby Stanger:
I hear that you and I share the belief that the outdoors can have a real positive impact on your mental health. Where does that belief come from for you?
Lesford Duncan:
Yeah. So I ran track, and track was really an escape for me in many ways. Growing up, my parents had separated when I was about six or seven years old. And my mom struggled with mental illness that came as a result of some of the traumas that she had experienced in her childhood. And as a result of that, my parents separated and my mom became homeless after a few years. And we grew up spending most of our childhood not knowing where our mom was, seeing her once every three months, or once every three years. And it took time to really reconcile with the idea that when my mom did show up, she showed up on our doorstep kind of wearing three layers of jackets and carrying the rest of her belongings in a canvas bag. So grappling with that throughout childhood was difficult, especially growing up on Long Island, where many of my friends, my peers, were more affluent. I felt alone in many ways, feeling like none of my other friends have parents who are separated or divorced. None of my other friends have a mom who's homeless. And so reconciling with that was really difficult for us. When I was 17, my mom collapsed on the street, and found out that way that she had stage four breast cancer. And from that point on, she had about nine months left. I'll never forget the day that she passed. My dad came and picked us up from school and took us home. And we were going through photo albums and selecting pictures for the funeral program. And I was like, "I can't do this right now. I need to get back to school. I need to get back for track practice." And that day I got back to school, my friends knew that my mom had passed, and they were incredibly supportive. And we just ran laps in this quarter mile loop on the trails right next to our school. And that day, I probably ran the fastest I've ever run on those loops, but just felt this sense of freedom, this sense that my mom was with me out there on the trails, but also just a sense of, in this moment, in this time, I don't have to deal with anything else. It's just me and the trails. And so that's carried in a really profound way throughout my life to help me to cope through a lot of other things, like last year when George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery died, being able to get out on the trails was one of those safe spaces where I could just be without the pressure of having to grapple with racism across America, and how America is reckoning with discrimination, and just be, and just be. I think that's one of the most powerful things that I took from being in nature and being in the outdoors.
Shelby Stanger:
That's amazing that running and nature have been so therapeutic and healing for you.
Lesford Duncan:
I think that many athletes like us use our sport as therapy. And I think in many ways, it can be. Right? I want to give the disclaimer though also that mental illness is real and also requires therapy, care, diverse forms of therapy, and so I also don't want to unintentionally encourage the audience to use the outdoors as the only form of therapy.
Shelby Stanger:
Totally.
Lesford Duncan:
We 100% support seeking appropriate clinical care if needed there as well. Therapy has personally helped me overcome a lot as well.
Shelby Stanger:
Thank you for being so vulnerable. That's not an easy story to share.
Lesford Duncan:
Thanks.
Shelby Stanger:
How did you get to the point where you can just share that story with such grace and vulnerability?
Lesford Duncan:
It took time. My family was a very private family, so for years, I never shared that story. Connecting myself to my mom, who's homeless, that's such a hard thing to talk about, talking about divorce and whatnot. But I feel like it's so important to share stories like that because it opens that space for others to share their stories as well.
Shelby Stanger:
Did you study mental illness in college? Did you study psychology? How did you get to sort of understand it more? Was it therapy? Was it you had a dad who helped you, talked about it? Running, you figured it out.
Lesford Duncan:
A lot of it was figuring it out on my own. My dad was incredibly supportive of us growing up, but in my family, we didn't really talk about mental illness in that way growing up. I didn't study mental health or psychology in college or grad school. But I did go on to work specifically in the realm of child abuse prevention and addressing childhood trauma, bringing awareness to ACEs, adverse childhood experiences, and the impact that ACEs have on children into adulthood, just bringing more awareness around that to communities. And then worked for a bit for a county behavioral health department aiming to build resilience in communities through increasing mental health services. And so worked a lot in that space, brought a lot of myself to kind of each stage of my work, and still even today with my work with Outdoor Outreach. But yeah, I think the more I told my story, the more I saw that it resonated with others and empowered others to also share their story and to not feel like they were living in the shadows or living by themselves in whatever it was that they were going through.
Shelby Stanger:
If telling his story helps others see the power of nature, then Lesford will keep sharing it. During some of the most challenging periods of his life, getting outside always made him feel less alone. When Lesford discovered nature's ability to heal and to connect, it became his mission to get as many people outside as possible. He especially focuses on reaching out to young people and to communities of color. Bonus points if they don't necessarily think of themselves as "outdoorsy." You said you grew up in New York.
Lesford Duncan:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
Did you grow up with a lot of nature and outdoor sports?
Lesford Duncan:
Yeah, it's funny. I mean, growing up, I wouldn't have considered myself an outdoorsy person. I enjoyed the outdoors, but I think there was a different kind of notion or idea of what it was to be outdoorsy. So for example, I loved riding my bike. I remember I think I was eight or nine years old, I took my bike out and rode it all the way out to Bar Beach, which is out on Long Island, and came back all by myself, and told my dad about it. And he was like, "Wait. You did what?" And just shrugged.
Shelby Stanger:
How far was that?
Lesford Duncan:
That must've been eight miles from my house.
Shelby Stanger:
That's badass for a little kid.
Lesford Duncan:
Yeah, definitely different times. Yeah, so I loved my bike. I loved exploring the crevices of the woods nearby and just getting into trouble in nature. But yeah, all that said, I didn't consider myself outdoorsy. And I remember even some of my closest friends going out on backpacking trips in our teens. And they wouldn't invite me. And I remember one time asking them like, "Oh, you go on these backpacking trips. Can I come one of these days?" And they specifically said, they were like, "Black people don't backpack. Black people don't hike." It was said so commonly that I even internalized that. I was like, "Oh, yeah, yeah. Black people don't really backpack or hike." I didn't have this concept of black people being outdoorsy in the traditional sense of the word. It wasn't until I got older that I reflected back on that. I was like, "Wait. I wonder how many other kids are receiving messages like that on a daily basis, about where they belong, where they don't belong, what outdoor activities they can engage in from hiking, backpacking, to surf, to rock climbing." If they don't see themselves represented in those spaces, then they're less likely to want to be in those spaces themselves.
Shelby Stanger:
I think a lot of people still grapple with they don't understand that, seeing yourself outdoors. I'm curious. Did you grow up at a school with mostly white kids?
Lesford Duncan:
I did. Yeah. Our school was less than 1% black.
Shelby Stanger:
Wow.
Lesford Duncan:
And there was a very clearly defined stereotype about what black people did and didn't do.
Shelby Stanger:
That's interesting. So when you were young, how did you get involved with running?
Lesford Duncan:
Yeah. Man, I used to think I was going to become Michael Johnson. So I think in middle school, I took up track and field. I ran the 100 and the 200, and even bought the gold spikes and everything. And yeah, just loved track, loved sprinting. When I got to high school though, my coach told me, he was like, "You're tall. You have these long legs. You don't really have much explosive speed. Let's move you up in distance to the 400 and the 800." And I was like, "No, I don't want to be a long distance runner. I'm a sprinter. I'm going to be Michael Johnson." I moved up to the four and the eight, did better in those races. And then eventually, he moved me up to the mile. I was like, "All right, but I'm not going beyond the mile." Eventually, he convinced me to do cross country. From there, I think it just took off. And now, I've done halfs, dozens of half marathons, marathons, and now ultra marathons.
Shelby Stanger:
I interviewed an indigenous runner two weeks ago. And he said running for him was prayer. And I was like, "What? I've never heard of that in my life."
Lesford Duncan:
I resonate with that.
Shelby Stanger:
Tell me. I always use run as a drug, or punishment, or to beat someone. So now thinking of it as prayer is so beautiful.
Lesford Duncan:
Yeah. I mean, there's something about especially stepping out of competitive running. So after high school, when you start doing half marathons and marathons, you're not going to win those races. Right? There's a select group of people that will win those races. But for the most part, you're running in crowds of thousands of people. And so it's just your own experience out there. When you run, when you hit that runner's high, or when you're just running for fun, so you're not trying to hit a certain time, or trying to race someone, when you're just running for fun, there's something just automatically liberating about that. You get into that mental space where everything just kind of falls away, and it is like prayer. I mean, when I'm running trails, when I'm crashing down Cuyamaca Mountain and running free, running goofy, there's that moment of joy and connection to God. I'm a person of faith, and so I have those moments where I'm just in connection with God. And so yeah, it is absolutely like prayer.
Shelby Stanger:
Running free and running goofy, that is Lesford to a T. I know when I'm out of breath and sweaty and my legs are wobbly from fatigue, spirituality isn't usually the first thing on my mind. But I love Lesford's perspective. It shows how present he is when he's running outside. As Lesford grew up, it wasn't just about getting in a good run. He felt most himself when he was out in nature. When did you have your aha moment about the power of nature?
Lesford Duncan:
My aha moment, my aha moment in nature was probably my first time summiting the peak. And so Mount San Jacinto was probably 2012, 2013. I climbed Mount San Jacinto here in Southern California and looked out over the high desert and just over Southern California all the way out to the Salton Sea, and was just in incredible awe that so many people live here in California and never get to experience the view from a peak like that. And I think at that moment, I was like, "Yeah, it's going to be part of my life's purpose to get everyone that I know outside, experiencing the joy that comes from experiences like this."
Shelby Stanger:
Joy in nature, that's something that's really important to me, but really to you as well. For you, what is joy in nature?
Lesford Duncan:
Ooh, joy in nature, I love to especially use the hashtag #blackboyjoy when I'm out in nature. I feel like nature, we get it. Right? Nature is this incredibly calming, incredibly healing space that helps us to just get away from some of the everyday stresses that we see, feel, experience, helps us also sometimes to process through some of the trauma that we've been through personally in our lives as well. When you're in nature, there's a sense of freedom, the sense of kind of disconnecting from everything else, and this grounded-ness, for lack of a better term, that is just incredibly powerful. And so it's been part of my personal mission for the past five, six years to really help especially communities that have been disconnected from nature, communities of color, low income communities, indigenous communities, to experience that joy in nature. So that's where I like to talk about black boy joy, and how we too can experience amazing experiences in nature.
Shelby Stanger:
How does it show up for you, black boy joy? What does that look like? And how do you tell those stories so more people can experience joy in nature?
Lesford Duncan:
Yeah. I say black boy joy is just the ability to be free, to be yourself in nature. I think oftentimes we have kind of like a set mold for what being in nature looks like, a very Western centric model of conquering mountains and tackling waves. But black boy joy for me means some days I'm out running long miles on trails and training for ultra marathons. And other days, I'm just going on a one mile hike with friends and laughing and playing music and eating good food, and just celebrating being connected to nature. And so it could be any of the above.
Shelby Stanger:
I talk to a lot of extreme athletes. And it's sometimes easy to forget that outdoor adventures don't always need to be about overcoming the next big physical challenge. There's absolutely nothing wrong with pushing yourself, but talking to Lesford reminds me that getting outside gives us the opportunity to also slow down and to appreciate the little things. When we come back, Lesford talks about his work at Outdoor Outreach and the impact it's had on youth in San Diego and beyond.
Shelby Stanger:
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Shelby Stanger:
Lesford's passion for the outdoors is contagious. In his role at Outdoor Outreach, it's part of his job to get kids excited about spending time outside and advocating for our planet. Outdoor Outreach was founded in 1999. Since then, it's provided opportunities for more than 16,000 young people to learn what they're capable of. When these kids spend time outside hiking, camping, climbing, or even surfing, they're discovering new passions, they're building confidence, and they're connecting with peers and mentors. So tell me about Outdoor Outreach. First, for the people who don't know what Outdoor Outreach is, maybe you can tell us a little bit about it. And just full disclosure, I've been an advisory board member for Outdoor Outreach and board member, and a volunteer for now 20 years.
Lesford Duncan:
So Outdoor Outreach is a San Diego based nonprofit that works to connect youth to the transformative power of the outdoors. We help youth to explore their world in new ways, experience some of the confidence that comes from engaging in outdoor recreation, from every opportunity to pop up for the first time on a surfboard, to climbing a rock wall for the first time, to even just getting out in nature and getting out on the trails, hiking, or snowboarding, or whatnot. And each of those experiences, youth have new opportunities to build confidence in their ability to do, to act, as well as their ability to positively impact the lives of others as well. And so a cool part of our program model is that not only do we take kids out surfing, kayaking, hiking, biking, we're also helping to build interpersonal skills, build leadership skills, build advocacy skills. And so many of our youth then go on to work in outdoor professions and increasing representations in the outdoors, just calling that as well. Some of our youth also go on to advocate, advocate for the environment, advocate around climate change, and how to mitigate some of the effects of climate change. And so it's really incredible to see how transformative those initial experiences in the outdoors, where youth feel a sense of connectedness, a sense of belonging in those spaces, how that has this exponential effect in how they show up later on in life.
Shelby Stanger:
One of the things that I love about Outdoor Outreach is that it really shows kids that nature is a right, not a privilege. Is that right?
Lesford Duncan:
Nature 100% should be a right. Nature can be therapeutic in and of itself. Being in the outdoors improves not only physical health, but also mental health. There've been studies that have shown that being in the outdoors can have almost the same effect as taking an antidepressant. Just a 20 minute walk through nature can have the same effect as taking an antidepressant.
Shelby Stanger:
Every single person I've interviewed about the effects of nature and mental health have cited that study. And they also have cited a study that they took hospital patients and put them near a window that looked out onto trees, and then other patients that didn't look onto trees. And the people who looked out onto trees got infinitely healthier.
Lesford Duncan:
Totally. I mean, it's bringing us back into harmony with where we most naturally should be. Right? So being in nature just brings us back into harmony. We're not built to be behind TV screens, or computer screens, or cell phone screens our whole life. We're built to be in nature. And so it is a powerful healer. So when I think about it from that standpoint, I think of nature and the outdoors as public health. Right? And so when you disconnect communities from nature, whether it be access to local green spaces, which many of our communities here in San Diego, especially many of our communities south of the eight freeway, don't have access to clean parks within walking distance from their homes, much less the beach or some of the far off nature. And so yeah, we 100% look at nature as health, as an integral part of public health, and so therefore should be a right for people all across the country.
Shelby Stanger:
I think a lot of people listening to this podcast, it's an international podcast, they don't realize that San Diego has areas where there is not a lot of green space or blue space.
Lesford Duncan:
Yeah. I mean, 15 minutes in from the coast is where Southeast San Diego is. But when you think about the barriers to access, well, if you don't have access to a car, a 15 minute drive to the coast is a two and a half hour bus ride out to the coast. And if you don't have people around your community that's connecting you to those spaces, it's hard to even get a start in some of those spaces. And so we try to create some of those initial experiences.
Shelby Stanger:
A lot of times, those experiences can change a participant's trajectory. I recently reconnected with an Outdoor Outreach alum a few weeks before my conversation with Lesford. Her name is Meli Perez Valdez. Actually, if you listen to the episode we did a few years ago, Meli was one of the guests. Meli was inspired to be the first in her family to go to college after an Outdoor Outreach snorkeling trip. Now she's working on becoming an immigration lawyer. Another alum, Ryan Hudson, went snowboarding on an Outdoor Outreach trip. He got hooked. He ended up graduating from high school, moving to Utah, and becoming a professional snowboarder. He was most recently in a movie with fellow guest and professional snowboarder, Jeremy Jones. We've talked a lot this season about how nature is physically good for you. As recent guest, Florence Williams, told us, time outside slows your breathing, lowers your blood pressure, and generally calms your nervous system. We all have the right to get outside and float in the surf or listen to the wind in the trees.
Shelby Stanger:
It's not just a confidence builder, but there's also something that happens in a different way than just you could run around a track a bunch of times. But when you do something outdoors in nature and trees, something else happens. There's even a study that says 20 minutes of exercise is great. But if it's 20 minutes of exercise in nature, it does something better for your brain than not.
Lesford Duncan:
Oh, totally. And I feel like science hasn't even begun to fully capture the extent to which, the extent of impact that nature has on us. I feel like there's a chemical connection that we experience when you're barefoot in the grass, or when you're grabbing onto rock, or when you're paddling out in the ocean. There's something chemical that happens within our body. I think it is also the confidence piece. And I just tried something that I never thought I would try, and I did it, and I succeeded. I never thought I'd be able to get out on a surfboard, and now here I am in the middle of the ocean, and I'm popping up on a surfboard. There's something transferrable about that as well that sparks that curiosity of, "Well, if I just did that, what else can I do in life?" One of our programs is in collaboration with juvenile probation here in San Diego County. And I'll never forget one of the programs where we brought a group of youth out rock climbing out by Dickson Lake. Before that, the week before, we did kind of like an on site skill building prep to get them used to the concept of climbing. And so we rigged up kind of like a ladder where if you can imagine four ropes kind of coming down from the top of that ladder. And so four people are responsible for holding those ropes up. And so it's kind of like a trust building or skill building activity. So four other kids are holding the ladder up while one kid is going up. And so we're practicing this idea of trust through that activity. And then we took kids out actually rock climbing the week after. Four, we had five kids there, four out of the five kids were nervous about it, but they were able to climb to the top of the wall and come back down. And they were so stoked about it. The last kid, he tried it. He got into the harness, got onto the wall, got maybe about three feet off the ground and was like, "No, this isn't for me." And all of his peers now were coming around and motivating him. They were like, "You can do it. You got this. You got this." And I chimed in. I was like, "You got this. Come on. Let's see you do it." He turned and looked at me. He was like, "But you haven't climbed it yet." He was like, "Are you going to climb?" And so at that moment, he put me on the spot. So of course, I mean, I had to say, I was like, "All right. I'll do it." I was like, "Who's going to belay me though?" And sure he enough, he was like, "Oh, I'll belay you." And so our operations manager was standing right behind him, and he was prepared to backup belay. I was like, "All right. We're doing this," and so I climbed, he belayed. And you should've seen the intensity in his eyes. At that moment, nothing else mattered. He knew that I trusted him with my life in his hands. And so he belayed me. I got up to the top. I came back down and just I see this intense look on his face. He's like, "Man, this guy is having me belay him." I got back down. He was like, "We did it. We did it. You got to the top." He was like, "You put your life in my hand and made it back down safely." He was like, "You trusted me." He was like, "We're like brothers now." Matter of fact, you're going to have to ... He was like, "I should be the best man at your wedding." And so just seeing even in moments like that where youth might not be able to fully immerse themselves in the activity or achieve a goal that they wanted to achieve, still finding those moments where they can experience just the confidence that comes from being present, being present for others, was really powerful.
Shelby Stanger:
So did he ever go back up?
Lesford Duncan:
I don't think he did. I think he was confident in not wanting to do that, and that's completely fine as well. One of the things that we value at Outdoor Outreach is challenge by choice. And so we're not a boot camp. We're not pushing kids to do anything that they don't want to do, and there's power in that as well. Right? There's power in knowing that you have choices and being able to make those choices for yourself.
Shelby Stanger:
How does someone get involved with this kind of work? What sort of access avenues do you think are the best way to start?
Lesford Duncan:
My journey started just bringing my friends into the outdoors. Getting my friends, getting my peers, especially people that don't see themselves as outdoorsy in the traditional sense, getting them outdoors and connecting them with nature. So I think that's really important. Whatever community it is that you belong to, especially if you belong to communities where you see an under-representation of people of color in the outdoors, looking at and examining why that is. Right? Why aren't women often found in the lineup, in the surf lineup? Why aren't people of color often found on the crags in rock climbing? And question that, and seeing in what ways big or small you can help to make those communities more inclusive. And then from a formal standpoint, connecting with local organizations near you, whether it be Outdoor Outreach, or phenomenal organizations all across the country and all across the world that are working to break down some of those barriers to access, getting out there, volunteering your time, talent, or treasure to support their mission.
Shelby Stanger:
There are tons of local organizations doing great work like Outdoor Outreach. We've talked about a handful of them on the show before, Soul Trek, Textured Waves, GirlTrek, and Grow Cycling. I know there are more groups out there working to increase access and representation in the outdoors. And they're always looking for volunteers for trip leaders, and for time, or treasure, or other support. As Outdoor Outreach continues to grow, the organization is increasing programming in schools. They're also partnering with parks to create internship opportunities and outdoor professions. You can learn more about Outdoor Outreach at outdooroutreach.org and on Instagram at @OutdoorOutreach. As for Lesford, he's putting in the hours both on and off the trails. He's working hard to deepen the impact of Outdoor Outreach's programs, plus he's training for the Ultra X Azores, an ultra marathon on an island off the coast of Portugal. Thank you so much to Lesford for coming on the show, for coming over to our house. It was such a blast to talk with you. And I really enjoyed our time together. You can follow Lesford on Instagram at @LesfordDuncan. That's L-E-S-F-O-R-D-D-U-N-C-A-N.
Shelby Stanger:
Wild Ideas Worth Living is part of the REI Podcast Network. It's hosted by me, Shelby Stanger, written and edited by Annie Fassler and Sylvia Thomas, and produced by Chelsea Davis. Our executive producers are Paolo Mottola and Joe Crosby. As always, we appreciate when you follow this show, when you rate it, and when you review it wherever you listen. And remember, some of the best adventures when you follow your wildest ideas.