In honor of those who are raising the next generation of wild ones. Host Shelby Stanger shares insights from past guests on how to raise adventurous kids, and tips about how you can make it easier to get outside with your family.
In honor of those who are raising the next generation of wild ones. Host Shelby Stanger shares insights from past guests on how to raise adventurous kids, and tips about how you can make it easier to get outside with your family.
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Shelby Stanger:
In the past six and a half seasons of wild ideas worth living, I've talked to a lot of adventurers who are parents. I've heard them talk about the challenges of adventuring when you have kids, but also about the magic of seeing nature through their children's eyes. Even though I'm not a parent, I am an aunt. My own niece and nephews are always showing me cool stuff like lizards on the side of the trail or funny shaped rocks. Simple things that I might not have noticed otherwise. Harrison, what do you like best about hiking?
Harrison:
I like the-
Shelby Stanger:
Wait, Wait, we can't have noise in the background. Podcasts are quiet. So you come sit here next to me. Come sit right here. Okay. Ready. Harrison, what do you like about hiking?
Harrison:
I love that the views.
Shelby Stanger:
You like hiking to get to the views.
Harrison:
Yep.
Shelby Stanger:
What did you see in the views?
Harrison:
I saw like water. I saw lots of lovely birds.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay. So besides hiking, Harrison and I like to go surfing. Harrison, what do you like best about going in the ocean and sand?
Harrison:
I like falling off and the waves pushing me back to shore.
Shelby Stanger:
Because it's fun.
Harrison:
Yep.
Shelby Stanger:
And what do you like about being in the ocean?
Harrison:
Swimming and seeing the fishes.
Shelby Stanger:
What kind of fish have you seen?
Harrison:
Well, I like seeing the original fish and clown fish.
Shelby Stanger:
And what about snorkeling?
Harrison:
Well, I like snorkeling a lot because you go deeper into the water and it allows you to see different animals that you see in the shore.
Shelby Stanger:
If you're a frequent listener to the show, you've probably heard me talk about surfing with my sweet niece. When we're out bobbing in the water, she makes sure to thank Mama Ocean before we head out to the break. Every time she does it, I'm reminded that the ocean is a powerful being and this tiny little ritual, my niece, brings me back to the present to focus on what's important.
Today's episode is a little different from what we usually do. In honor of those who are raising the next generation of wild ones. We wanted to share insights from some of our past guests about parenting. And later on we have some tips from parent and author, Lindsey Konchar, about how you can make it easier to get outside with your family. I'm Shelby Stanger and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living an REI Co-op Studio's Production.
One of my favorite Wild Ideas episodes of all time featured Chris Fagan. In 2013, Chris and her husband Marty decided to leave their 12-year-old son at home and ski across the South Pole. They went after a world record on an expedition that had a lot of risks. And leaving their son at home was not an easy decision.
And you guys have a baby?
Chris Fagan:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
Keenan.
Chris Fagan:
Yes.
Shelby Stanger:
Who at the time when you decided to go to the South Pole was 12, right?
Chris Fagan:
That is correct, yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
That's a pretty young age to leave a kid at home when you want to go off and do an adventure that has some risks. How did you guys decide to do that?
Chris Fagan:
When the idea first emerged, it was three years prior, so Keenan was nine years old. Really it took us a year to vet the idea. Can we do this? Can we be safe? Is it too risky? Because when the idea first came up, it was not a yes. It was a, "Oh my gosh, what? Why not us? We have all this experience now, why not us?" And so then we explored that question for a full year and we vetted our experience and our skills. We met with Polar guides. We actually went on some training with them to say, "Are we crazy to think we can do this or do you believe that we have the skillsets?" And then they said, "Yes, I actually do think you guys have what it takes." "So a year, yes, okay, we can do this."
Then two years of really hardcore training and planning and bringing my son along. So at first he really was reluctant about the idea, but for three years of watching us plan and make sure we're going to be safe and that he's going to be safe at home.
Shelby Stanger:
So eventually your kid's on board, you get other people on board. Was there anybody, maybe even your parents who said, "You're crazy for going to the South Pole?
Chris Fagan:
So when we decided to announce that we're going, there was clear camps of, "This is awesome, we totally get what you're doing." And then there was clear apprehension from another group and rightfully so. Until you really understand the painstaking ways in which we were making sure that we were going to be safe, when you just hear it, you think, "That's irresponsible." So that camp, until they sort of allowed us to explain where we're coming from, then a lot of people came around. My brother was one of them. He lives up in northern Alaska and he knows cold intimately and he's just like, "I don't get it. It's just going to be cold. A big struggle. Why would you do this? I don't understand. And who's going to take care of Keenan when you guys die?" And I'm like," Ooh." Some people just don't understand why some athletes want to struggle. Why do we want to struggle and why do we want to put ourselves in harm's way?
Shelby Stanger:
What's that answer?
Chris Fagan:
It's a hard answer to explain it, but the short answer is, we are on this planet to live, right? Fully. And once you figure out what your thing is that makes you feel most alive, I feel like that's what you need to go do. Ultimately for our son, it was to model for him what it looks like to live a full life that makes you feel most alive and that's how you're going to contribute the most in the world, I believe. So the judgment that we felt it, was hard, but then we overcame it. Because you kind of just go, "Why are we doing this?" But then watching our son come along on the journey with us and his mindset shift as he was part of it and he could feel our excitement and for him to see his parents put in so much effort and hard work towards a goal, you can't explain that to a child. You model it for a child.
Shelby Stanger:
It's easy to feel like there's a disconnect between pushing yourself to go after a wild idea and being a parent. Suddenly going for a months long trek on the PCT or even an afternoon hike or a simple surf session feels almost impossible. For veteran and mountaineer Stacy Bear, becoming a father changed the way that he spends time outside. It's been a priority for Stacy and his wife to encourage their daughter, appropriately named Wilder, to create her own relationship with the outdoors. And sometimes that means doing what she wants to do.
Stacy Bare:
For us, it's been really helpful to let Wilder lead and not set out any huge goals of we're going to hike 10 miles or 12 miles or whatever. Because yeah, Jimmy Chin's kid is climbing the Grand Teton by the time she's seven, which is awesome, but they're letting her lead. I think when the child wants to go a little bit further, giving them the opportunity to be pushed, but not pushing. Giving them the opportunity for rest and giving them the opportunity to say, "No, I don't want to go. I don't want to do that," I think is really good.
I mean, there are times where I try to ask Wilder and then there are times where I just tell her, "Hey, we're going to go do this hike." And generally she might complain about it the whole time there. And then getting her off the hike, we may not finish the hike. We may not hike the two miles or three miles or five miles that I was hoping to go, but we might spend two and a half hours playing fairies and looking at mushrooms and cool sticks and leaves.
Shelby Stanger:
That's so cool. Do you play hot lava where you guys walk on the logs?
Stacy Bare:
Yeah, I mean we've been in so much hot lava we've been in. And then, yeah, I think that's a really great point actually, because letting them take the lead on that stuff and you get your imagination back. The other day we're driving home from a little adventure and talking about what we wanted to do and we said, "Hey, what big adventure would you like to go on?" And she said, "I want to go to Horse Park." And we're like, "What's Horse Park?" And she goes, "Horse National Park, where all the horses are." And it would've been really easy to be like, "Well, there's no Horse National Park," but instead we thought about it and we were Like, "Where the hell is Horse National Park?"
And so here's the advantage of having a smartphone everywhere, although it has its own challenges, so we looked up wild horses and national parks. So next year we are going to focus our big family vacation to one of the parks or areas in the country where there's wild horses. We might go back out to Utah, Assateague Seashore, there's wild horses in Hawaii. So we're going to try and figure that out but like, "All right, here's the adventure you want. We're going to go do it. We're going to let you lead on this."
Shelby Stanger:
I love that Stacy came up with a creative way to support his daughter in her own wild idea. When kids see us going after big adventures, we're showing them that they can do the same. But sometimes pursuing wild ideas while parenting is easier said than done. When writer and professional ultra runner Katie Arnold had kids, she was worried that she might have to kiss her days of adventuring goodbye. Instead, Katie adopted a different, slightly unconventional mindset.
Katie Arnold:
My husband and I have been outdoor athletes way before we had kids. When we had kids, we just made sort of an unspoken decision that we were going to just keep doing our lives the way we were doing them and bring them along. And what really helped, not joking, my older daughter, Pippa, was three days old, and I went to my doctor for her new baby checkup. When you walk in and she's like a raisin and you're like going to break her on the way in. And you come in and you hold her out to the doctor and you're sweaty nervous. He just looked at her and he was like, "Here's two pieces of advice." He's like, "Never look anything up on the internet and take her everywhere with you." And even then in my addled, sleep-deprived, postpartum mess of a self, I was like, "He just delivered the wisdom. That's the blueprint for raising this baby."
And of course, we already had the blueprint in our lives as being river runners and hikers, we trekked in Nepal and lots of things. So we had the foundation, but that was permission to keep going with what we wanted. And early on we took our older daughter and actually our younger one too, on their first river trip when they were 10 months old, which is kind of nuts. And I just remember getting there and being like, "Oh my God, what are we doing?" I mean, let's be real. We're five days out of cell range with a newborn. But we went with some friends who had raised their own kids on rivers, and so we had these good mentors, but we got to the put in and I'm hyperventilating. "I can't do this. I'm the worst mother in the world." And there at the boat launch, just finishing a three-day trip is a woman with a baby exactly my daughter's age.
And I was practically falling on her with relief like, "Oh my God, you did this too. How was it?" And she's like, "Well, this trip was great." She's like, "This is his second river trip." And I was like, "I'm good. Okay, I'm all right. I'm going to survive this." I just remember looking at her and she was super badass with the river sandal tan, and she had this baby and I was like, "Okay, I can do this."
But I remember when we got back, people were critical and they were like, "Why would you take a baby down a river? They'll never remember." And this is the big point. And I was like, "They're not going to remember this river, but we're training ourselves as parents to take them out when it's hard and to do hard things." I changed so many diapers on the floor of a tent. I would nurse my babies on the river. The breast milk was sandy and muddy, dirty because I was. And you do that enough and you're like, "Okay, other things with raising kids that would seem hard, no longer seem so hard. Now I can get home and wake up four times a night because I'm in my own bed." And so it moves the mark, so that everything else feels easy in comparison. And you're just creating this life, this expectation for yourselves as parents that you're going to keep doing these things.
Which isn't to say it's ever too late to start. I don't think so. I feel like any new parent or parent listening, get your kids outside in any way you can and start whenever you can. But certainly it's been good for our family to start so young because our kids are just steeped in it. That's just how we live.
Shelby Stanger:
When kids are exposed to nature on a regular basis, they learn what to expect and what they can get excited about in the wild. Maybe they found a secret blackberry patch to explore, or maybe they'll get to practice skipping rocks on the river. Whatever it is, making the outdoors a part of their routine will foster a lifelong relationship with nature.
Evelynn Escobar prioritizes taking her daughter hiking as much as possible. She's the founder of Hike Clerb, a national nonprofit that brings women of color together in the outdoors. When she became a mom, Evelynn quickly had to learn some tricks to make it easier to take her daughter with her on the trail.
How has having a kid changed how you get outside or how you think about nature?
Evelynn Escobar:
I now have to prepare so much more to get outside with a child than I did before. That's making sure we both have water. Making sure I have the carrier. Making sure that I have the sunblock, the sun hat, all of the things. For me, it's so easy. I can grab my fanny pack, put on my hiking shoes, get some water and go. But obviously for her, I want to make sure that she's having a comfortable experience. Because I also don't want to traumatize her and then she doesn't want to go into nature because she's like, "Oh, my mom would always just rush me out and I never had fun or was comfortable." So that is definitely key.
But also it looks so different. She enjoys hiking. I mean, I hiked up until I was around eight months pregnant, so now having her earth side for almost two years now, she falls asleep in the carrier because that familiarity of hiking and how my body rocks feels so comforting to her. So that, but also just sitting in the park and sitting on a blanket and taking off her little shoes and letting her run around in the grass so that she can get the effects of grounding, not even realizing that she's grounding in that moment. You know what I mean?
She is just so naturally curious, which all kids are. She loves to get dirty. She loves animals. I just continue to feed her experiences that will allow that curiosity to remain open. But also to allow her to feel comfortable in getting outside and really just trying to come from this place of openness and exploration and innate curiosity and following their lead, ultimately.
Shelby Stanger:
When we come back, social worker and author, Lindsey Konchar will share her tangible tips for getting outside with kids.
Adventuring outside with your kids can be hard, or at least that's what I hear. From packing all the right gear to coaxing them into the car, to actually carrying all that gear with you, it's a lot. There are days it seems impossible to summon the energy to get out there. And then, even when you do make it to the trail head or get everyone on their bike, it's not all rainbows and butterflies. There are often meltdowns, skinned knees, and the inevitable, "Are we there yet?"
But the benefits of getting you and your family outside are well worth the effort. Lindsey Konchar is the author of "I Got 99 Coping Skills and Being a Bitch Ain't One," a book about evidence-based techniques to help reduce stress, anxiety, and depression. In order to take care of her own mental health, Lindsey makes it a point to take her kids outside on a regular basis. For her, a perfect day is spent out on the trail with her three-year-old daughter and six-month-old son.
You're a parent, you talk to a lot of parents, what's your advice for staying active when you have kids?
Lindsey Konchar:
So really start small and set your expectations really, really, really low. And I don't mean that in a cynical way, I mean that in just be realistic. Kids are unpredictable. Sometimes they wake up on the wrong side of the crib. Other days they wake up and they are just super joyful and that is no indication of what a couple hours could look like for you. Everything is just very ... it changes a lot with kids. And so I think having a lot of snacks for toddlers is great. If you are breastfeeding, I have breastfed on the trail many times, you just have to kind of know that we might not get all three miles in today. We might get three minutes in and turn around and that's okay. Go out and do it again.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay, let's talk about that, the mindset and the expectations. Is there something you just say to yourself over and over again when you're going out with your kids so that you can manage those expectations? Because I get upset just without kids, if I go out on a trail and something goes wrong. I have nieces and nephews ... yeah, is there something I can say to myself ... before moms, dads, uncles, aunts go out with kids?
Lindsey Konchar:
Yeah. We went out with Grammy and Papa the other week and my father-in-law was very much like, "Come on, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go." And I just kind of looked at him and was like, "You haven't been outside with toddlers lately, have you?" Because there's no rushing them. Every leaf is cool, every worm, every spider, every rock. Everything is cool and new. And so especially if you're going in the winter. I would say layer up because you are going to go a lot slower than you typically would on your own. It's not a power walk, you know. You are really, really taking in the nature. You're taking in the forest. You're doing it all very slowly. And sometimes that can be really frustrating because you do just want to move and that's just not always the option. So you just have to go really, really slow. You're still moving, but just slowly.
Shelby Stanger:
I love that story. So do you have any other stories of how you adventure with your kids?
Lindsey Konchar:
Yeah, I'm in Minnesota and we love to go up to the North Shore. The Superior Hiking Trail is our favorite spot. And so there was actually a time I went, it was just my daughter who was about one at the time, just the two of us girls trip, and it was a seven-mile trail. I started it with no water, which was really dumb. I also didn't bring any snacks for her, so she just had my breasts for on the trail. It was just a very ambitious hike and I was not well-prepared. We summited and I looked around, was like, "Wow, this trail wasn't even that good." I was just really disappointed in the whole thing.
And on the way back down, I literally was in tears because it wasn't what I wanted. It wasn't what I expected. It wasn't what we had done before. And on the way down, I literally was barely able to see the roots that I was walking over and all the different things because of my tears flooding my eyes. I just kept saying to myself, "You can go slow, but you can't stop." Out loud, to myself in the woods, saying, "You can go slow but you can't stop." Because if I stopped, I honestly don't know if we would've made it out. We just did it and when we were done, it felt so good to have done it and to go through a really bad hike and know we survived and we'll go back out tomorrow.
Shelby Stanger:
Isn't that interesting that some of the best adventures are the ones that are kind of terrible. So snacks, gear, what has helped? What has made these trips a success?
Lindsey Konchar:
Apple sauce on the go. Any easy to grab snacks like that, that she can have that's also hydrating her, which is really, really helpful. Obviously bring water. That one that I talked about earlier, don't do that. Have extra water on hand. And also for layering, really, really important. We always have a Merino wool base layer. It's just really helpful. It's really breathable. And so she's always really comfortable. And then I would pack an extra pair of socks and a nice solid pair of waterproof boots. But let's be honest, she sees a puddle, that girl is going straight for it. And so wet socks, nobody wants to walk in that for extra miles, so you can always change it out and we make it happen.
Shelby Stanger:
What's the biggest obstacle in adventuring with kids?
Lindsey Konchar:
Leaving the house. Just leaving the house is sometimes, like I said, the mindset. It's like, every time there's so many days I'm like, "Oh, we should get out. We should get out. We should get out." And I finally do it and I'm like, "What took me so long? It feels so good to get out here. She loves it."
I also have a three-month-old, he's great in the carrier. And it's just, once we are outside, we are so much happier. It's like when you go to workout and you're like, "Oh, I don't want to go to the gym." And then you finally get there and you feel so good, right? It's like the same thing getting out on the trail.
Shelby Stanger:
What about keeping kids engaged? Not every kid likes the outdoors right away. Although I don't know, let me take that back, most kids like the outdoors. So how do you keep them engaged even if the hike is a little long?
Lindsey Konchar:
Yes. We have to sometimes entice my daughter like, "Hey, did you see that rock up there?" Or, "Look." A lot of times we'll see those tree fort kind of things as people built, the rock sculptures and things. So like, "Oh, do you see that?" And so we do have to encourage her. And you can also do things like preemptively. If you make a scavenger hunt and you need to cross off the things on the list and for younger kids, just use pictures. You can do different colors and different shapes and all sorts of things. There's so much book learning that you can actually do on the trail. Two, the outdoors teaches kids so much, and that's why I think it is something that every kid can get into and love. But if you don't love it yourself, that does rub off on them. So you have to find the things that you enjoy so they can pick up and catch some of that fun that you're feeling too.
Shelby Stanger:
One of my favorite tips Lindsey mentioned in our conversation was to keep a list on your phone of moments when you felt like a badass. Maybe it was the first time your kid walked on a hike instead of being in their carrier. Or maybe you actually remembered to bring enough water and snacks for the whole family. Writing down those wins and revisiting them from time to time is a great way to motivate yourself to do it again.
Thank you so much to all of our guests, old and new, for sharing your insights on parenting and getting outside. If you want to follow any of the guests you heard from in today's episode, you'll find all of their links in our show notes. Happy belated Mother's Day and happy early Father's Day to all the families out there. I hope your celebrations involve a little fresh air and some sunshine. As we enter into summer, we hope you and your kids can spend as much joyful time outside as possible.
Wild Ideas Worth Living is part of the REI Podcast Network. It's hosted by me, Shelby Stanger, produced by Annie Fassler, Sylvia Thomas, and Sam Peers Nitzberg of Puddle Creative. Our senior producer is Jenny Barber. Our executive producers are Paolo Mottola and Joe Crosby. As always, we love it when you follow the show, rate it and review it wherever you listen. And remember, some of the best adventures happen when you follow your wildest ideas. And in this case, bring your kids along.