Sarafina El Badry-Nance is a scientist, an author and a speaker. She's dedicated the last several years to studying the stars and is currently working on her PhD in Astronomy at UC, Berkeley. Sarafina's research focuses on supernovae or exploding stars.
Sarafina El Badry-Nance is a scientist, an author and a speaker, she's dedicated the last several years to studying the stars and is currently working on her PhD in Astronomy at UC, Berkeley. Sarafina's research focuses on supernovae or exploding stars.
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Shelby Stanger:
Whenever I get away for the weekend, I try to go somewhere with a good view of the night sky. Getting out of San Diego means leaving behind the city lights to gaze up at the stars. I can often even see the Milky Way. The sparkling lights above, give me a sense of perspective and fill me with awe. We're all so small in the scope of this universe, it's spine boggling. Astrophysicist, Sarafina El Badry-Nance has been studying out her space for years and she's still blown away by the magic of the cosmos. Do you remember the first star or the first constellation you ever saw?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
I remember listening to StarDate Radio on NPR, and I was the nerdy kid who just listened to shows on NPR, I guess. And I remember Sandy Wood talking about Venus and when Venus would be visible that night, and it just blew my mind that we could see that with our naked eye.
Shelby Stanger:
I'm Shelby Stanger and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living, an REI Co-op Studio's production. Sarafina El Badry-Nance is a Scientist, an Author and a Speaker, she's dedicated the last several years to studying the stars and is currently working on her PhD in Astronomy at UC, Berkeley. Her research focuses on supernovae or exploding stars. But she isn't just sitting in a lab all day, Sarafina spends a lot of time breaking down her knowledge of space in ways that are more digestible for the public. She hosts a web series, she's authored a children's book, and in 2022 she was featured on the Forbes 30 Under 30 list. Earlier this year, Sarafina published a memoir about her life as an Astrophysicist and how her love affair with the cosmos began. She grew up outside of Boston, Texas, just down the road from NASA. I'm just really curious how your fascination with the cosmos and stars began?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
I fell in love with the stars when I was five years old. I used to stargaze with my dad every night and we had a pair of binoculars that I would just use to look up at the moon. And I think even at that young age I was fascinated. I just wanted to learn more and continue. I just never stopped, essentially.
Shelby Stanger:
How did you decide to lean into physics and math? Those are the two subjects that I somehow got away from even having to take one class in in college. I finagled my way out of having to take one science or math class.
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Good for you.
Shelby Stanger:
Which was, joke's on me. No, I really regret it. As a kid, no one who looked like me or even I wanted to ever be like was teaching these subjects. It just wasn't cool. My family didn't encourage it. So I'm really curious how your parents helped you? You're a little bit younger than me, so it's like science has definitely gotten cooler and same with math and physics, but how did you dive into that?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Yeah. I think a couple of things, my dad had a background in science, although he's an Economist, I don't know, I think he majored in physics for part of the time in college and then he quit because it was too hard. I think he wanted me to carry the torch. But more than that, I had mentorship from a very early age, from my parents who would sit with me and do homework and basically say, "We're going to do it until we get it right." And then as I got older, I had science teachers who were equally invested in their student success. And so finding people who believed in me and my story and my voice and made science fun and accessible was huge. I think my favorite teacher in high school, he talked about science as exploration and I loved the outdoors as a kid, and so it'd be like, "Oh, I can go hiking and see the stars." Or, "I can be in these really remote, interesting, fun environments and that could be part of my job." Which was a really enticing thing for me to keep trying to solve hard problems.
Shelby Stanger:
What is the process of becoming an astrophysicist like? What do you have to do to become one and what does an astrophysicist do? And you got to dumb this down for me because I'm someone who confuses astrology with astronomy.
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
No, you're good. Astrophysicists basically try to research and solve problems and learn about our universe, anything that's in the sky, we apply the scientific method to try to learn things about the way the universe works. My path to astro was basically double majoring in astronomy and physics in college and slogging through the really hard courses, that at many times I hated. But I also did research on the side and that research was really exciting, because tackling problems that nobody has ever solved about our universe. How cool is that?
Shelby Stanger:
Like what?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
I was studying how and when a massive star called Betelgeuse is going to explode as a supernova. Massive stars explode at the end of their lives, and I was trying to figure out when that might happen, so I ran simulations and dipped my toes in astronomy research in college, and now I'm researching how fast the universe is expanding.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay, let's pause a sec. Even though I love reading about this kind of stuff, I'm not an expert and maybe you aren't either. If you don't know what Betelgeuse is, it's a giant red star, many times bigger than the sun. It's one of the stars in the constellation Orion, it's one of the largest stars visible to the naked eye. For a while now, Betelgeuse has been doing this abnormal thing where it dims and brightens. Some people think that means that it's going to die. Because it's so huge, Betelgeuse's death will likely result in a supernova. I'll let Sarafina explain that one.
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Supernova are exploding stars. They can be one single star that outshines an entire galaxy, so these stars are just mindblowingly bright. A galaxy can host a 100 million to billion stars and one supernova can outshine that galaxy. What's cool about them is, they are basically the stuff of life, so the elements that we interact with every day, the carbon in our bodies, the oxygen that we breathe, all of these elements come from exploding stars. So basically any element heavier than hydrogen or helium, which came from the Big Bang, comes from supernova. They're intrinsic to life as we know it, and their evolution shapes the evolution of the universe. Those are two things, and then they can be tools to probe the fabric of the cosmos, so these supernova are basically points of data that can lead us to be able to study other parts about our universe. I'm using supernova now as tools to try to determine how fast our universe is expanding.
Shelby Stanger:
What is your hypothesis right now? What is happening?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
We know the universe is not static, but it's expanding, meaning that the space between galaxies is getting bigger and bigger with time. But not only is it expanding, it's accelerating that expansion. So the space between galaxies will continue to get bigger and bigger and bigger until it is so far apart that the universe is plunged into darkness. But that won't happen for trillions upon trillions of years, so we don't have to worry about it. But I am studying how fast the universe is expanding right now in this current moment in time. And we're trying to figure out what that value is because it tells us something about the size of the universe, the age of the universe, the composition of the universe, so what's the stuff inside of it and potentially what that can tell us about the fate of the universe.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay, so let's go back to Betelgeuse because that seemed to be one thing that you'd already studied, and people were worried it was going to explode?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Yep.
Shelby Stanger:
What would it look like if it exploded? We don't see stars explode for way after they actually explode.
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Yeah. It's about 500, 600 light years away from us, so it might have already exploded and the light takes time to travel to us, so we won't see it for a little bit. But the way we talk about, has it exploded or is it going to explode? The way we talk about time in astronomy is often from our perspective today. So sure, we need to account for time dilation, which is what we call that light travel time, but when we say it might not explode for another 100 thousand years, that's taking into account the light travel time.
Shelby Stanger:
How come when I think about the universe and how small we are as part of the universe, my brain just hurts? And I do this weird thing with my face where I'm just like, "Ah."
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
I think that's normal. I think all astronomers are like, "We're mind blown constantly by the stuff that we study." And when you think about the scales, we are humans on a planet that is one of eight planets around our sun. Our solar system is part of a galaxy, and there are billions of galaxies that make up these clusters, these galaxy clusters. The scale just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger until all of a sudden your mind literally can't process. And so I think that's a super normal thing. I've heard that it's similar to how people feel about the ocean, just the vastness of the ocean. The scale to me is fascinating and exciting, but I think to some people it can be really overwhelming.
Shelby Stanger:
But what does that do for you? I've interviewed geologists and a few astronauts and they always have this amazing perspective. So how has studying how small we are and how big the universe is helped you with this perspective?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Yeah. I think I was drawn to astronomy in large part, because I have anxiety and I sweat the small stuff and I feel afraid a lot of the time. I think anxiety is in large part, a fear-based reaction to feeling out of control. And I think astronomy, all you have to do is walk outside and look up at the sky and you are reminded of the vast scales that exist in our universe. And to me that's a really comforting feeling. It puts everything in perspective, our trials and tribulations that we deal with every day suddenly don't seem so overwhelming or so important, because we're pretty much a blip in the cosmos. And I think that it could be defeating or nihilistic, but I think to me, it just means that everything that we value and cherish about life and about existence is infinitely more precious.
Shelby Stanger:
When we come back, Sarafina tells us about her time doing a Mars simulation and shares a passage from her book Starstruck. Sarafina El Badry-Nance is an Astrophysicist who spends her days studying exploding stars. She tries to predict when these explosions will happen and what the effect will be on our galaxy and universe. Sarafina has been fascinated with the cosmos since she was a young girl, and it's been a lifetime dream of hers to go to space. Do you want to be an astronaut, actually go out into space?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Yeah. In 2020 I applied to NASA to be an astronaut and didn't make it. I was looking at some resumes of other people who have gone to space or who are interested in going to space, and I saw that analog astronaut simulations were a thing. I'd never heard of them until that point. And this is a common thread of things that I do, so when I was in college, I was like, "How do I become an astronomer? Let me look at their CVs and see how they got there." So I found out about HI-SEAS, which is this analog astronaut simulation in Hawaii on top of Mauna Loa, which is the volcano.
Shelby Stanger:
On the big island.
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Yeah. On the big island, exactly. And you're at elevation, you are completely isolated from everyone and everything. There's no greenery around, there's definitely no humans, no roads, nothing. And you live in this white, I don't know, circular dome thing called a habitat. And you're entirely self-sufficient. You have solar panels for power and it's constructed as closely to being on Mars as we could probably get here on earth, meaning you have rationed food and water. You can't leave the hab unless you're wearing a full EVA suit or space suit. You have to get any missions, so missions are leaving the hab approved by CapCom, so our equivalent of what NASA would be like.
And then you're constantly checking in with CapCom as you're on your EVA to make sure you're safe, to make sure that they know where you are. I was in a crew of five total people and we all had designated jobs basically to complete every day, and then also in addition, our own research. And then the rest of our time was basically devoted to making sure the hab was livable and we could survive. And I think that's a large part of any astronaut's journey is, they're just trying to survive in these harsh conditions. And then on top of that you get to explore.
Shelby Stanger:
How was it for you? What was the hardest part?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
I loved it. I oddly thrived, I think there. And that was a question going into it, it was a nice little internal test to see, "Is this something I would actually ever want to do?" I think the hardest part for me... Actually, the hardest part was the food. The food was terrible.
Shelby Stanger:
That's what I was going to ask you about, I read about it. Talk to me about it. What did you eat?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Oh my God, so nasty. It's all freeze-dried food and it probably doesn't sound so bad, but you have to get really creative with disgusting ingredients and that's all you're eating for weeks and weeks. And we had space noodles, which I know I wrote about in the book and it's this, God, I don't even know how to describe it, it's like pasta noodles, but with dried tofu. And it's literally so nasty, I wouldn't wish it upon anyone.
Shelby Stanger:
It sounds like vegan backpacking food, is really what it sounds like.
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
It's worse than vegan backpacking food. I can tell you from experience. Sometimes I'll eat the... What is it? The Backpacker's Pantry Pad Thai. That stuff is good.
Shelby Stanger:
That's really good. That's good. That's salty.
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Yeah. The salt content is good, but this was not. But you do what you got to do to survive.
Shelby Stanger:
You can apply to NASA again, can't you?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Yeah. I plan on applying in, [inaudible 00:17:34], basically.
Shelby Stanger:
Amazing.
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
Becoming an astronaut is incredibly competitive. For their 2021 class, NASA received over 12,000 applications for just 10 spots. That's a 0.08% acceptance rate. Still those odds haven't discouraged Sarafina. She's incredibly perseverant and has overcome plenty of obstacles to get to where she is. When she was 23 years old, Sarafina is diagnosed with the BRCA gene mutation, which means a higher risk of breast cancer. She decided to have a preventative double mastectomy. The surgery was just one of the many hurdles that Sarafina has had to confront in her life, but she's taken it all on with strength and self-knowledge. In her new memoir, Starstruck, Sarafina intersperses her own story with facts and research about the cosmos. Is there a passage that you like to read from your book? I won't make you read if you don't like reading.
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Sure.
Shelby Stanger:
Because sometimes people ask me to read and I'm like, "Oh God."
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
No, this is great.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay, good.
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
This passage comes on the heels of an astronomer telling me that I'm not cut out for astronomy, when I was, I think an 11-year-old. I stare blindly into the crowd, my hands gripping my schedule so hard that I don't cry again. The anxiety flooding my body remembers the astronomer at camp, the one who so easily sought to crush my dreams with a sentence. But as I sit, I notice another voice inside me, one that is quietly taking up space. She's the voice of the stars, she is infinite and small, somehow both at the same time, she is calm, she doesn't speak, but she pushes me slightly against my heart to remember the sky, to remember that it's out there waiting, it's not going anywhere and neither am I.
Shelby Stanger:
When did you decide to write Starstruck?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Pretty much right after my mastectomy.
Shelby Stanger:
How did you know you wanted to write a book?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
I had just started sharing publicly about my surgeries and about genetic testing and these things that were happening to me in real time. And at the same time. I was also talking about science. I was talking about my experience as a woman of color in science. And I've always loved to read, I was an only child, books were literally my best friend as a kid. And I think in a parallel universe, I would be a full-time author or writer. And I think I had this moment where I was really trying to reckon with and understand the threads that connect my experience. And that's when I started thinking deeply about representation, thinking deeply about science, communication, and education. I think I recognized, this matters, my story matters, simply because all of our stories matter and that's worth sharing. And I felt really excited to find a way to share it.
Shelby Stanger:
I think what struck me so much about your book is you seamlessly weave your love of the cosmos with these really awful things that are happening to you. I'm really curious how you dealt with these moments and how studying the cosmos at the same time helped you deal with these moments?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
I think the way that I plowed ahead during the darkest times of my life is entirely because of the perspective that I had from studying the night sky. When I was diagnosed with BRCA, I felt so flooded and so overwhelmed by these horrible things that were happening. And those things can still be bad, but there's something about putting them in the context of the universe, that made me feel like it's not the end of the world. And I think part of the reason why I structured the book with this book ending each chapter with sections about space and about science is because, that evolution of the universe, I think is intrinsically tied to the evolution of humans and how our human condition is wrapped up in or paralleled by what's happening in the night sky. And for me, I think finding connection, finding community to ground me alongside that buoying force of remembering that I'm small, the things that are happening to me feel big, but are also small. That allowed me to keep going.
Shelby Stanger:
Well, some of the things you went through were pretty big. What did you learn from these big moments in life?
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
I think the instances that are challenging, like domestic violence or abuse or intergenerational trauma or these big meaty hard topics, the through line through all of them is very universal. We all have different hard things that happen to us, we all have shitty moments in our lives that feel impossible at the time. But what I drew, at least in reflecting on them was, how I can be closer to myself, how I can feel more grounded in who I am, and then hopefully move forward to share my experiences with others so they feel less alone.
Shelby Stanger:
Yeah. You're really brave in your book, in what you shared. I was really blown away.
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
Thank you.
Shelby Stanger:
And in your book, you wrote this beautiful line, you said, "You're on a quest to understand the universe within yourself." I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that.
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
That's my favorite line of the book.
Shelby Stanger:
That's beautiful.
Sarafina El Badry-Nance:
I'm glad that resonated with you. I had this incredible therapy session a couple of years ago and that's where that conversation was drawn from. It was like a light bulb moment where I was talking about how I study astronomy and how I've devoted my life to doing something incredibly challenging. And sometimes I'm like, "Why am I doing this to myself? Why am I doing something so hard?" And I also have this deep human connection to the cosmos, and that's what draws me back every single time, is that passion and love for the night sky. It has my heart, my soul.
And what I recognized when I was talking to my therapist at the time was, I am equally enamored or, and interested or invested in trying to figure out the universe within each of us, within myself. Because by understanding myself better, by committing to untangling the threads that make up my life, I can better show up. And there's this really beautiful parallel in that, we are star stuff, we are the stuff of stars. The stuff in our bodies is literally born from supernova, the death of massive stars. And so when we're trying to understand the universe within ourselves, we are intrinsically infested in understanding the cosmos.
Shelby Stanger:
Sarafina, you are an inspiration to anyone who's ever looked up at the night sky and wondered what was up there. I'm so glad you're following your calling to increase scientific literacy. Thank you so much for coming on Wild Ideas Worth Living and for figuring out ways to share this complex research with the public. I would highly recommend reading Sarafina's book, Starstruck. Her writing is really beautiful. And if you have a kiddo in your life, Sarafina also wrote a kid's book all about space called Little Leonardo's Fascinating World of Astronomy. Both of those are available wherever you buy your books. And of course, you should follow her on Instagram, it's starstrickensf, that's S-T-A-R-S-T-R-I-C-K-E-N-S-F.
Wild Ideas Worth Living is part of the REI Podcast Network. It's hosted by me, Shelby Stanger, produced by Annie Fassler, Sylvia Thomas, and Sam Pierz Mintzberg of Puddle Creative. And our Senior Producer is Jenny Barber. Our Executive Producers are Paolo Motala and Joe Crosby. As always, we appreciate when you follow the show, rate it and take time to review it wherever you listen. And remember, some of the best adventures happen when you follow your wildest ideas.