Courtney Conley is a movement specialist, foot health expert, and author of the national bestselling book Walk. Through her work as founder of Gait Happens, she helps people build stronger feet and ankles to improve mobility, prevent injury, and stay active for life. Whether you love hiking, running, biking, or climbing, Courtney believes better movement starts from the ground up.
Courtney Conley is a movement specialist, foot health expert, and author of the national bestselling book Walk. Through her work as founder of Gait Happens, she helps people build stronger feet and ankles to improve mobility, prevent injury, and stay active for life. Whether you love hiking, running, biking, or climbing, Courtney believes better movement starts from the ground up.
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Shelby Stanger:
A couple of years ago, my doctor told me that I had very little cartilage left in my knees and that I shouldn't run anymore. I've mentioned this moment a few times on this podcast, but that news was really hard on me. As someone who has a lot of energy, there's nothing that helps me clear my mind like going for a run. In fact, I try to do it before every interview for this show.
When I was struggling with this news from my doctor, I reached out to a movement specialist named Courtney Conley. Courtney is the author of the national bestseller, Walk. Walk is about how strengthening our feet and ankles can help us stay active long-term. Courtney ended up giving me some physical therapy exercises, and they worked - really well. Recently, I was even able to run a half-marathon. So when I found out she'd be in Denver for Outside Days, I jumped at the chance to meet up with her in person for an interview and some training.
Here's a clip from our session.
Courtney Conley:
So when you do a calf raise, you want to come up through the big toe.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay.
Courtney Conley:
All right, good. And then come back down. Okay. And then I also look at height, all right? So are you getting up onto the ball of the foot? Okay? See the toe gripping here?
Shelby Stanger:
Yeah.
Courtney Conley:
That is not what we want. That means you're gripping. I need a toe that's relaxed. Use your foot and calf.
Shelby Stanger:
Ooh, it already hurts.
Courtney Conley:
Yes.
Shelby Stanger:
This episode is all about feet. So if you're into foot stuff, this one is for you. Just kidding. But seriously, in order to go after wild ideas like hiking, running, biking and climbing, we need strong feet. The problem is we don't usually think about our tiny toe tendons and muscles when we're training. Courtney is here to help us bring awareness to these parts of our body so that we can stay healthy for longer.
I'm Shelby Stanger, and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living, an REI Co-op Studios production presented by Capital One and the REI Co-op Mastercard.
Courtney Conley, welcome to Wild Ideas Worth Living in person.
Courtney Conley:
It's so good to see you. Thanks for having me.
Shelby Stanger:
Courtney helped me be able to run when doctors said, "You should never run again." I don't really know how you made it work, but you just gave me some exercises, and I was like, oh my God, I can run.
Courtney Conley:
It's good for you.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay. Let's talk about walking, running, feet, all the things. First of all, you just wrote a book called, Walk, and how good it is at helping people maintain health and longevity. I'm curious where this idea came from and just a little bit about your background.
Courtney Conley:
I like to say I've had a healthy obsession with feet for a long time. It's my passion. I've had my own history of foot problems, so I've always been wanting to figure things out because movement has been such a huge part of my life.
I have a practice here in Colorado, and I've been seeing patients with foot pain for probably the last 20 years, and it's really been very eye-opening for me, as a clinician, to see what happens when people's feet hurt. I don't think there's any musculoskeletal diagnosis that stops someone in their tracks faster than their foot bothering them because you can't do anything, and you certainly can't walk. So that's what got me thinking about writing the book was there is this very big connection that I don't think people realize that in order to be able to walk and to walk long distances, like we should be able to do, your feet have to be healthy.
Shelby Stanger:
So if you want to hike the Pacific Crest Trail or the Appalachian Trail or just a hike in your backyard, you have to have healthy feet.
Courtney Conley:
You sure do. It's so wild to me. It's the first interface we have with the ground. It literally is what keeps us upright and balanced as a human being. And we hear of people strength training their bodies and doing all of these things for their bodies, and we don't really ever hear about that from below the knee.
Shelby Stanger:
All right, this is going to be a fun interview. Let's talk about your background really quickly. Were you outdoorsy as a kid, did you play sports, were you a dancer?
Courtney Conley:
Yeah, I was a dancer, ballet, modern, the whole bed. I was in point shoes. My feet started bothering me then. And then I switched gears to triathlons. So then I did some 70.3s. That was my distance.
Shelby Stanger:
A very small distance. So you went straight to Iron Man, basically, distance.
Courtney Conley:
It calmed my brain. I have realized that movement is a necessity for me to keep sane.
Shelby Stanger:
So you went to PT school?
Courtney Conley:
Chiro.
Shelby Stanger:
Chiro school.
Courtney Conley:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay.
Courtney Conley:
So I started looking at what I wanted to do, and I really wanted to learn about the foot and ankle. So I was like, okay, I think I can go to chiropractic school and we'll learn about all this stuff. And we did learn a lot, but unfortunately what I was hoping for at the foot and ankle just wasn't quite there.
The education was really, if the foot hurts, get them in some type of foot orthotic. And if it hurts more, refer them to surgery. There was very little conversation about how to strengthen the foot, how to mobilize the foot. So when I got out of school, I worked in a couple orthotic labs and that's what we did, and I realized that we needed to switch it up.
Shelby Stanger:
Instead of giving people equipment that created more structure and support for their feet, Courtney wanted to learn how to actually solve the problems her patients were having. It was clear that orthotics weren't really helping people prevent further issues. In fact, people's feet would often become worse over time. There's extensive literature that explores how the more support we give our feet with shoes, the less strength our foot is gaining on its own. Newer research has developed certain tools that actually can help improve painful foot issues like bunions, neuromas and more.
Courtney personally wears toe spacers, which are small pieces of silicone that go between her toes and help them spread out. Another strategy is to wear minimalist shoes or shoes that feature a wider toe box.
It's embarrassing to admit, but my mom has these things, but I had a bunionectomy in 2009, and it ruined me. I was told that my knee problems were a result of having this thing on my foot, and then I had the surgery and I couldn't walk or run for a few years after, and it was painful. And I'm a runner. It really crushed my soul.
Courtney Conley:
On both of my feet, I've had every diagnosis in your foot from bunions, neuromas, stress fractures, the whole bit. And clearly I just wasn't addressing it correctly because it was, I'm going to go get this foot orthotic. I'm going to go get this more aggressive shoe. And then we would start to tweak it and I'm like, oh, I think I feel better, and then my knee would hurt. And it was like, what are we doing? Why am I not strength training my feet like I am the rest of my body? It just didn't make sense to me.
And so the first thing I did was get into a shoe where my toe could actually sit straight. Which sounds so like, it's like low-hanging fruit. So for people who have any type of forefoot problem, bunion, hammertoe, things like that, you have to get into a shoe where the toes can move around. And a lot of my patients will be like, wow.
Once you start, by the way, going down that road of shoes that respect the anatomy of your foot, you will realize very quickly when you put your foot back into a shoe that's too narrow, for example, that you don't like it.
Shelby Stanger:
I hate narrow shoes. I can't do it anymore.
Courtney Conley:
Even cyclists, the cycling shoes are a whole nother conversation, but there are companies now that make anatomically shaped cycling shoes. And I mean, a lot of my cyclists with neuromas and nerve pain, once they get into a different shoe and then they put their foot back in their narrow cycling shoe, their toes are going numb. I mean, you hear that stuff all the time. But it just makes sense to allow the toes to be able to splay.
So that's the first thing I did. And then I started strengthening my foot. There's a muscle in your foot that straightens your big toe.
Shelby Stanger:
What's the name of that muscle?
Courtney Conley:
Abductor hallucis. It's one of my obsessions.
The other cool thing about that muscle is it's a postural stabilizer. So it's slow twitch muscle fibers. So basically what that means is it's on all the time because it's helping your posture. It's helping you stay upright and balanced. It's helping straighten your toe. So for people who have heel pain or bunions, this is a big deal. You want to strengthen this guy.
So how do you do it? Well, you start with toe spacers, right? This is passive, but then you can do drills where you're strengthening that muscle. And it's quite hard. One of my favorites to do is if you were a single-leg balance and you were to take a band and put it underneath the ball of the big toe, so the band would be attached to a table. You're balancing on your right leg and the band is under the ball of the big toe, and you hold that, people's feet start cramping and their calves start cramping just because they're engaging their foot. We shouldn't be saying like, oh, why do one out of three people have foot pain over the age of 45? I mean, those statistics are crazy. It's because the feet aren't strong enough.
I think what people don't think about with bunions, for example, is it's not just a foot problem. It's an instability. So you have to ask yourself, why is the bunion there? And a lot of people say, well, my mom has a bunion or my grandma has a bunion. Well, my response to that is, well, you don't come out of the womb with a bunion.
Shelby Stanger:
That's so true.
Courtney Conley:
When you go to the doctor and they ask you about your family history like, do you have heart disease in your family? They want to know that so that you can be proactive, so you can change your diet, exercise more. So if you know your mom has a bunion, do the same thing. Be proactive, wear the right footwear, pay attention to why it's happening. A lot of that is instability at the foot, but also above the foot, so knee, hip, back. Where is the changes in the load coming from?
Shelby Stanger:
Courtney can tell a lot about a person's foot strength by assessing their posture, walking gait and basic mobility. The body is far more interconnected than many people realize. For example, when we were together, Courtney showed me there was a visual difference in her bunions when she shifted her pelvis in and out of alignment.
Courtney Conley:
People have to start paying attention to their feet like they pay attention to the rest of their body. So take your shoes off and look at your foot. The widest part of your foot should be your toes. When your toes can splay, you have better stability. You can engage the muscles of your feet. Most of the injury's at the foot. So when we're walking or we're hiking or we're running, when you go to push off, there's a lot of multiple times your body weight going through that part of the foot. It was designed to handle those loads though when it's splayed and strong and stable.
So when I'm with my patients, we'll just start with some foot awareness drills. I'm like, if you can't do these, then this is where we need to start. And it's simple stuff like, can you lift just your big toe? Can you lift your four toes? Can you lift all of your toes and see daylight between each toe? Can you spread them?" These are all important drills and exercises for awareness of your foot, to make the connection between what your foot is doing and your brain.
Shelby Stanger:
What if you can't do that?
Courtney Conley:
You practice.
Shelby Stanger:
I feel like I practice spreading my toes all the time, and they just don't move.
Courtney Conley:
Toe spacers help, interlacing your hands in your toes and mobilizing your foot. You just got to work on it.
Shelby Stanger:
You've got toe spacers on underneath your shoes. I've never seen that.
Courtney Conley:
I do. I literally wear them. I get up in the morning and they're on my feet and then I take them off right before I go to bed.
Shelby Stanger:
So awesome. And they're not like those crappy things that I've bought on Amazon before. They're the ones you've made.
Courtney Conley:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
Cool. I have some.
Courtney Conley:
I put them in my shoes.
Shelby Stanger:
Amazing.
Courtney Conley:
All right, now I'm going to start doing that. I was a little scared, but I had no idea.
Well, it's that big toe. I also have bunions. That's what got me into all of this.
Shelby Stanger:
Oh.
Courtney Conley:
And they wanted to do surgery, but I was like, no way.
Shelby Stanger:
Smart.
Courtney Conley:
So I work on the strength of my foot, but I also wear those toe spacers because it keeps my big toe straight. And so when I run and I hike, I want to have the ability to push through my forefoot.
The foot can be strengthened just like everywhere else in the body. You can really do things like sled pushes and farmer's carries. All of those things put more loads through the foot, and we have to really start training the foot in that perspective.
Shelby Stanger:
Dr. Courtney Conley is a foot and movement specialist who helps people move better, recover from injuries and build strength. For me personally, Courtney's work has been transformative. She's taught me about the small muscles in the postural chain and what I can do to develop them. It turns out those muscles make a big difference in our overall strength and balance, whether we're training for a thru-hike or just want to stay mobile as we get older.
So for someone who might be preparing for a race, a marathon, a half-marathon, an ultra, maybe even a backpacking trip, a thru-hike, what can they start doing to prepare their feet to lead up to this big adventure?
Courtney Conley:
I think from a range of motion perspective, there's two joints you really... I mean, there's a lot of joints, but the ones that I really look at are the mobility of your big toe and your ankle mobility.
Shelby Stanger:
Oh, those are the ones that I struggle with the most.
Courtney Conley:
So people don't realize when their big toe hurts or they start to get arthritis in that joint, it's a showstopper. It really is. I mean, all the professional athletes that I've worked with, they say to me all the time, "I didn't realize how this could affect my performance by simply my big toe hurting." Because you literally can't push off. You can't cut. You can't accelerate. So maintaining the range of motion at that big toe is crucial.
In a walking gait, we need about 40 to 45 degrees out of that guy. So it's like if you had your foot on the floor and you could take your finger, lift your big toe up, you want a minimum, I would say, about 40, 45 degrees.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay. I failed that test. I can tell, but I'm excited to work on this.
Courtney Conley:
Ankle mobility is a big one too.
Shelby Stanger:
In ankle mobility, what can you do besides sit on a slant board and lots of ankle drills and rolling your ankle?
Courtney Conley:
Make it active. Things like-
Shelby Stanger:
Squats.
Courtney Conley:
Squats, walking on your heels, heel to toe walks, you have to look at how the foot and ankle work together. And ankle mobility, it's one of those things that is very high on the list for fall risk. Because think about walking down stairs, sitting in a chair, walking up a hill, that's all ankle mobility.
Shelby Stanger:
Yeah. It just takes a long time, it feels like.
Courtney Conley:
When I have patients that come in and they're like, "I've been stretching my calves for 10 years and everything still feels tight," you have to listen to them because I always say, if you listen to the patient, they'll tell you what's wrong. And if you listen to them long enough, they'll tell you how to fix them. And I use the word fix loosely because I don't think anybody needs fixed.
But if I'm stretching tissue and nothing is happening, I might get a little window where it's like, oh, this feels better, but then it goes right back, maybe you're barking up the wrong tree. If a joint is unstable or something isn't stable, your brain's going to win and it's going to protect you. So it's going to tighten up the tissues around the joint. It's neuroprotective tightness, so we have to treat that a little differently. It maybe doesn't mean stretch. It might mean strengthen, give the system stability. And then the brain goes, oh, okay. I feel safe. I'm going to give you that range of motion.
Shelby Stanger:
One of the simplest, most restorative exercises for improving our foot and ankle mobility is to just take a walk. The human body is practically designed to put one foot in front of the other. We tend to take it for granted though. Think about when you walk across a parking lot to the grocery store or down the hall to the bathroom. It's automatic. We don't tend to feel our feet connecting with the ground. When something is second nature, it's easy for us to forget how powerful it can be for our bodies.
Your book is about feet, but it's really about walking. So tell me about the benefits of walking regularly that we might not already think of. We all know it's good to walk.
Courtney Conley:
It's this easily accessible, underutilized activity that we all have access to that I think a lot of people don't take advantage of. I really want to reframe the concept of walking as a physiological necessity, similar to breathing and sleeping.
If I said to you, "You can't sleep tonight." It'd be like, "Well, that's going to really affect my function as a human being." That's how we need to really view walking is this core biological input that has to happen every single day in order for every single system in our body to function well.
I mean, it is this low to moderate-intensity activity that stimulates the musculoskeletal system, our brain, our nervous system, so it has to be viewed as not optional. I think if when we say walking is exercise, yes, on paper. But some people would view exercise as, well, I'm not going to do that today. I don't want people to look at walking like that. It's you got to be out there.
And if you look at the research from a longevity perspective, it's not that 10,000-step marker. It really is around 7,000 to 8,000 steps, and I think that's very digestible for people. I mean, the average step count is around 5,000. So that means a lot of people are getting less than that, and that's not where we want to be.
Shelby Stanger:
Well, if you're already a runner, a hiker, or I don't know, maybe you're someone who does CrossFit, whatever, why do you need to also incorporate walking into your day?
Courtney Conley:
It's like, I'll talk to my runners all the time, and I was actually in this category also. I would get my run-in the morning and then I would go work and I'd sit at my desk on Zoom calls for eight hours a day. That one hour of running doesn't excuse you from moving your body for the rest of the day. So that's where that walking conversation of this biological input has to happen throughout the day.
I mean, if you think about it from, if we were to talk about your digestive system, for example, when you eat, your blood glucose goes up. And one of the best times to go for a walk is after you eat because the muscle contraction helps grab the glucose and gets it into your cells. It takes some load off the pancreas from doing all the work. So that's what I always say to my runners. You still have to have this input happening to your body for the rest of the systems of your body. You don't get a pass if you just run in the morning.
Shelby Stanger:
Oh, that's what I do every day. So what else do I have to do?
Courtney Conley:
Take little micro breaks. In the book, we talk about a micro walk. A micro walk is five minutes, 500 steps. Easy. 10 minutes is about 1,000 steps. Find little places in your day. And just like you said, I mean, you want to talk about productivity and creativity and what it does for your brain? There was this really cool study I just read on dementias and how walking and at different paces actually increases the volume of your hippocampus, which is the part of the brain that is affected or shrinks with dementias. So it was really fascinating to me that we have this activity that can grow parts of our brain. I mean, come on, everybody needs to be doing this and doing it consistently every day.
Shelby Stanger:
Do you have any stories of people who, lives have changed by fixing their feet or walking?
Courtney Conley:
Yes, and a lot of them. That's my why. It's such an awesome thing to really see people's lives changed when they can understand and really improve. But one of my favorites is this guy came to see me. He lived out on the West Coast, and he was trained to be a firefighter, wildlife, and he had hurt his foot. And by the time he got to my office, it was three years. He was three years into this thing. So he never finished his training. He had been in pain for three years. And the last person that he went to see told him to take 2,000 steps a day, so less. So now you have this kid who's in his late 20s living in his dad's basement who's told to walk 2,000 steps a day. What do you think his mental health status was?
Shelby Stanger:
Yeah, he was totally depressed.
Courtney Conley:
Oh, it was awful.
Shelby Stanger:
Poor kid.
Courtney Conley:
Crying, and it broke my heart. So when he came to see me, we literally had to flip the script. But he had to trust me enough to know... Because I'm telling him to move more. But I had to do it in doses that he was confident with, where he could start to feel safe in his own body again. So we started micro walk, and I said, "You're going to take a five-minute walk once a day." That's where we started. And then it was three times a day. So a five-minute walk three times a day, now we're improving his step count by 100% with three five-minute walks.
Once he started feeling a little bit better, we started to get into foot strength and footwear, and we really worked together. And his progress, it's never linear with pain. It's not today I feel a little better, and then tomorrow's even better, and the next day's even better. It's like up and down, and we have to understand that. That if we wait till we're pain-free, as human beings, to start doing what we want to do, you'll wait a very long time because pain is so complicated.
So we treated all of him and not just his heel pain. And to this day, he texts me and he'll be like he's in Lake Tahoe and he's climbing this mountain. And it's like I get so excited every time I see those things because it changed his life.
Shelby Stanger:
Oh, that's so cool. That's so cool.
Courtney Conley:
With walking, and hiking and being outside and getting in nature. I mean, it was everything for him.
Well, I mean, it's an interesting conversation.
Shelby Stanger:
What about for older people?
Courtney Conley:
We lose power faster than we lose strength as we age, and a lot of that power in walking comes from the foot and ankle. When you start to see someone, my dad said this to me the other day. He's like, "I feel like when I'm walking, I can't push through my foot." And so he goes into a shoe store and then he gets this shoe that has all this cushion on it with this big old rocker on it. And he's going to leave there going, "Oh, this is great. This is rockering me right through." Here's the problem with that. If you don't use it, you're going to lose it. So he gets in that shoe without addressing the fact that he's losing strength and power and he doesn't start improving his strength and power, then he keeps getting weaker, and that's unacceptable for me.
So that's where a lot of these little drills can really start to help people, like single leg balance with your foot on the ground barefoot. Start doing some type of calf raise. Get some strength into your lower legs. Just do some bounces, like hands on the wall and just start tapping your heels quickly, all of that stuff just to get the system going. And it's very, very important.
Shelby Stanger:
Just like any other part of the body, strengthening these small muscles and tendons takes practice and requires consistency. In addition to exercise, reassessing your footwear is a big part of improving your foot health. But a quick search online can be overwhelming. There are a lot of options out there, and it can be hard to know exactly what you're looking for.
In this industry, there's this big conversation about shoes, thick shoes, minimalist shoes, wide toe box shoes. Now there's carbon-plated shoes. And I'm like, I don't want a carbon plate in my foot. I don't know. It's just confusing.
Courtney Conley:
It is. It's very confusing. And I think the right answer for that, there really isn't one because everybody's going to respond to something different, but I think having the conversation of a shoe spectrum. There is no always or never. So if you think of a spectrum on one end of the spectrum is your minimal footwear, and this is the footwear that really respects the anatomy of the foot, a wide toe box, a zero drop, the heel and toe sit on the same plane, and the sole is very thin and flexible. In that environment we know, with research, that the foot gets stronger. There's more loads going through the foot. That's a healthy environment. The problem is, is that there has to be a transition. You have to earn your right to get there. The foot and ankle have to get strong to handle that environment.
Shelby Stanger:
So the answer to the barefoot minimalist shoe movement is it just depends.
Courtney Conley:
It just depends. You really need to assess your strength and power at your ankle. What does your calf strength look like? What does your plyometrics look like? Can you single-leg hop? Can you do X-amount of calf raises? Can you produce power at your foot and ankle?
Shelby Stanger:
Well, for the average person listening, when they go to buy a shoe, what should we do?
Courtney Conley:
My non-negotiable is a wide toe box.
Shelby Stanger:
Me too. I love a wide toe box. So if it's just a normal shoe, do you get it in a size wide? That's what I'm always confused about.
Courtney Conley:
Wide is different than wide toe box. So the toe box, the width of the shoe in a wide shoe is at the metatarsal head, so at the ball of the foot.
Shelby Stanger:
And the reason is?
Courtney Conley:
And it still tapers. If you were to take out the factory insert of the shoe and put your foot on it, if your toes extend beyond the factory insert, you probably know that when you put your foot in there, it's going to be squeezing your toes together. I just don't know why companies, I really wish they would just understand this concept, that the big toe needs to be straight. Just make a shoe where the big toe can be straight so that you can actually use the power that you're supposed to out of the big toe.
Shelby Stanger:
So interesting. You've worked with lots of shoe companies, Altra, Vivo. Talk to me about brands that you like.
Courtney Conley:
There are now hundreds of minimal footwear companies out there. We have a list of them on the website. A lot of them are European-based. There's several in the US. So like Lems, Xero, those are all minimal shoe companies. In the functional world, where you have the different variations of stack height, you have Ultra, Topo. Notace is a new one. Notace has a great courtshoe, like a pickleball shoe.
Shelby Stanger:
I was going to ask you about tennis and stuff.
Courtney Conley:
But the people are catching on and they're realizing this.
Shelby Stanger:
Called Novo?
Courtney Conley:
Notace, N-O-T-A-C-E. But there's a difference between a functional shoe and a minimal shoe. So the difference is that a minimal shoe is going to be minimal. It's going to have a very thin and flexible sole, wide toe box, zero drop. That thin and flexible part is probably the hardest for people to adjust to because you really can feel the ground. For those of us who are living in a city, walking on concrete a lot, don't have the opportunity to get on dirt or to get on trail, sometimes that thin and flexible sole is a bit much.
That's where the functional footwear comes in. So functional shoes, wide toe box, low to zero drop, so six millimeters or below, and then variations of stack height. So stack height is the amount of material or cushion between the sole of your foot and the ground, so I always say the least amount of cushion necessary to complete the task.
When you look at what happens when you have all this cushion, you lose sensory acuity. So there's a lot of receptors on the bottoms of our feet, and they're designed to feel things, to send messages to our brain about how we should move, how we should be upright, how our posture should be. You need to feel those things in order to have good movement from the ground up. So you start interfering with what the foot is supposed to be feeling, what do you think's going to happen with balance? What do you think is going to happen with stability? People need to feel the ground.
Shelby Stanger:
If you're interested in learning more about foot and ankle strength, check out Courtney's online platform, Gait Happens. You can take scans of your feet, do a personalized program, learn more about live events, and start your injury prevention journey. That's www.gaithappens.com. You can also find them on Instagram at gaithappens. You can also buy Courtney's book, Walk, wherever you buy books.
If you liked this episode with Courtney, check out our interview with Katy Bowman about small movement practices you can do right now to increase your mobility. We'll link to that in the show notes.
Wild Ideas Worth Living is part of the REI Podcast Network. It's hosted by me, Shelby Stanger, produced by Annie Fassler, Sylvia Thomas, and Sam Pierce-Knitzberg of Puddle Creative. Our senior producer is Jenny Barber. Our executive producers are Paolo Mottola and Joe Crosby. Thanks again to our partner, Capital One and the REI Co-op Mastercard.
As always, we love it when you follow the show, take time to rate it and write a review wherever you listen. And remember, some of the best adventures happen when you follow your wildest ideas.