Conrad Anker is a legendary mountaineer and one of the most prolific explorers alive today. He has successfully ascended and completed dozens of major mountain expeditions, including summiting Mount Everest three times. In today’s episode, Conrad shares with us the wisdom gained along the way.
Conrad Anker is a legendary mountaineer and one of the most prolific explorers alive today. He has successfully ascended and completed dozens of major mountain expeditions, including summiting Mount Everest three times. In today’s episode, Conrad shares with us the wisdom gained along the way.
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Shelby Stanger:
Conrad Anker is a legendary mountaineer and one of the most prolific explorers alive today. Prior to setting out for an expedition, he plans his route, packs his bag, and then he does one other surprising errand.
Conrad Anker:
Before I go on big trips in the mountains, I get a pedicure. Might sound kind of odd, but soft, supple, well-hydrated skin is better than dry, flaky, calloused skin on your feet. So, you have warmer feet if your feet are done properly.
Shelby Stanger:
That is the most mind-blowing advice I have ever gotten. So this is good because when I get a pedicure before my expeditions, which are surf trips, it's a disaster.
Conrad Anker:
Because you lose that tough skin. Oh, yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
I need tough skin for walking on rocks or I cry.
Conrad Anker:
Well, I like it because my skin comes away really soft and they [cross talk].
Shelby Stanger:
It's great, and you get a massage.
Conrad Anker:
Yeah. My feet, they're just more supple. So my hands and feet, I take particular care of them because they allow me to enjoy this wonderful planet that we have.
Shelby Stanger:
I wouldn't have expected that a rugged outdoorsman like Conrad Anker would make pedicures part of his trip preparations. Conrad Anker has successfully ascended and completed dozens of major mountain expeditions. He's discovered countless uncharted territories and led The North Face climbing team for nearly three decades. He summited Mount Everest three times. And in 1999, Conrad found the remains of famous mountaineer, George Mallory, who died attempting Everest in 1924.
In a field where risk and death are daily calculations, Conrad has had to grieve for many friends and climbing partners. Despite the danger that comes with being a professional mountaineer, he chooses to keep exploring and adventuring in the mountains. Conrad has had multiple first and second ascents, climbed massive peaks in Alaska and the Himalayas, and brought many athletes on some wild expeditions. Conrad has had an incredible impact on the alpine world and the outdoor industry, but at the end of the day, he's just a guy who really likes to spend time outside.
I'm Shelby Stanger and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living, an REI Co-Op Studios production. Conrad Anker, welcome to Wild Ideas Worth Living. So I'm really excited to talk to you because you found a way to make wild ideas your life, and I think we should just start. What were you like as a kid?
Conrad Anker:
Well, thanks for having me as a guest here. And yeah, I was introduced to the outdoors at a young age through my parents and then through scouting and things like that, and began rope climbing and mountaineering or so at age 14. I'm now 60. Went backpacking and mountaineering and it was pre-wrap bolting, pre-climbing gyms. Climbing was a different thing then. And that's how I got started with it. And pretty much at age 14 while hiking out of a two-week pack trip with the family, I realized this is my happiest place, and I just wanted to spend as much time as I could outdoors. I didn't know how I would do it, but I was like, whatever I do and work, I work so I can have time off. Saw that at age 14 and have been following that more or less for the last bunch of years.
Shelby Stanger:
How were your parents so outdoorsy?
Conrad Anker:
My mother's side of the family's from East Germany and my father's side of the family's from Central California in the foothills of the Sierras, so that's what we did we went out with mules and horses in the back country, and I was introduced to it at a young age through my parents. And we'd go out for these two week journeys in between Highway 108 and Highway 120. So we'd alternate years starting and get dropped off at one place and then get picked up at the other. And those formative journeys with the family really set the foundation for where I am today.
Shelby Stanger:
That is a really lucky, wild, exciting childhood. I think a lot of our listeners would want to pursue adventure as a career. How and when did you find a way to make that happen, or did you just fall into it?
Conrad Anker:
I started out being in the back country with my parents and all of that, and so there really wasn't jobs per se. And then when I was at the University of Utah, part of my work study was the outdoor recreation program. So we'd have rafting trips and climbing 101 and I'd help out and be a student guide on those. And then I started in 1983 at [Hoybar 00:05:01] which is a retail store that was owned then by the North Face. And that was sort of my start in 1983, was helping people size a down coat or there was one type of climbing shoes then it was EBs or [Feerays 00:05:19] and then Sportivas came in. But yeah, climbing has grown quite a bit and there's employment within it. And in my case, I get to work with the brand, the North Face. I've been with them now coming on 40 years, and we get to help design product and work on marketing strategies.
There's a lot of ways to work in the outdoor business and it's a very open and welcoming community. We're all grounded in experiential outdoor activities, and there's not that overt competitiveness that one would find in team sports. It's more like, "Hey, our shared goal is to make it the top of the mountain. If we work together and we trust each other, we can make it happen."
Shelby Stanger:
Conrad never could have imagined that he'd have this kind of career. He went on his first solo backpacking trip at just 14, when his parents let him spend 48 hours alone in the Sierras. He pitched his own tarp, built a campfire, and made some instant noodles or "top ram" as he calls them. For Conrad, it was a lesson in how to be alone in the wild and it kickstarted a lifetime of great adventures.
Over the past 40 years, Conrad has worked with dozens of teams to summit mountains and explore untouched corners of the world. He's been featured in many notable outdoor films, including the award-winning Meru, which documented the first ascent of Meru Peak in India via the demanding Shark's Fin route. For Conrad going on expeditions is just a regular part of his life.
When you do these big expeditions, like these big mountain climbs, or you're going to Antarctica in a month, what sort of rituals do you have before?
Conrad Anker:
Oh, rituals before a big expedition. So with the equipment, I lay it all out and it's kind of exploded on the floor of the basement, and I kind of walk over it and I take pictures of it and I add things, I take things away. And then before I put it in the bag, I snap a photograph of it, and then I know that everything's in there, and try to separate things so you don't have all your eggs in one basket. And then make sure you have all your papers and everything you need to travel with that. So going to Antarctica or before I go on big trips in the mountains, I get a pedicure. So might sound kind of odd, but soft supple, well-hydrated skin is better than dry, flaky, callous skin on your feet. So you have warmer feet if your feet are done properly.
Shelby Stanger:
Is the most mind blowing advice I have ever gotten. So this is good. Because when I get a pedicure before my expeditions, which are surf trips, it's a disaster.
Conrad Anker:
Because you lose that tough skin. Oh, yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
I need tough skin for walking on rocks or I cry.
Conrad Anker:
Well, I like it because my skin comes away really soft and the calluses are like wearing mountain boots, and then my feet are, they're just more supple. So my hands and feet, I take particular care of them because they allow me to enjoy this wonderful planet that we have.
Shelby Stanger:
Amazing. I will be writing off all of my pedicures from now on as a gear cost, an expedition cost. Thank you.
Conrad Anker:
Yeah.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay, so you get a pedicure. Love it. What else about when you get there and the morning of? Do you have mantras, do you pray, do you have a gratitude practice?
Conrad Anker:
Well, if I'm climbing in the Himalayas and I'm climbing in Nepal, then you're a guest of the indigenous people, their culture that's there and to respect that and to follow through with that. But yeah, mostly in the morning as I wake up and I get ready to go out and be in the woods, it's gratitude and just for the simple things. If you've been on a long expedition, you come back and you're like, wow, a cup of tea is really nice because if you've been on expedition, you have to find snow, melt snow, get the stove going, brew this tea. It takes quite a bit of work. And so when you come back after these self-imposed journeys of hardship, you have a greater appreciation for the quotidian things that we kind of take for granted in our day-to-day life.
Shelby Stanger:
It doesn't seem like you've gotten softer as you've aged. Like for me, I don't have a greater desire to rough it like I used to, I've gotten softer. What about these really hard, suffering, but beautiful trips keeps you going? Because it is hard. You have to take a lot of gear. You have to travel far. You get delayed. Shit always goes wrong. You're at the age where you could just get a Starbucks and you're like, "No, I'm going to melt my water over a stove."
Conrad Anker:
Yeah, and camp out. I just don't know. I think my factory setting was high risk, cold weather, lack of food. I don't know. I don't know. At first I wanted to go in there and plumb the depths of my mind and try to figure out why I do all this crazy stuff, and now I'm like, well, I enjoy it. I like being outdoors and the manner in which I communicate with the people I'm with is exceptional. And that being outdoors brings friendship and brings trust between people, and that's a pretty special thing.
Shelby Stanger:
Conrad told me about one of his favorite expeditions that he did with his friend Seth Shaw in 1990. They had learned about the East Buttress of Middle Triple Peak from a book called The 50 Classic Climbs of North America. The climb was in Denali National Park in Alaska, and Conrad and Seth decided to ski it.
Conrad Anker:
So Denali is the apex of the North American continent. It's in Denali National Park. It's 20,320 feet, so 6,112 meters. And then southwest of there are the Kichatna Spires, and the summit there is only 10,000 feet, probably, 3,000 meters, but they're these big granite cliffs. And generally speaking, people will use a small aircraft with skis to land on the glacier. And so my buddy Seth and I were like, "We're going to ski in and ski out," just to make it more difficult. So we did the second ascent of the middle triple East Buttress of Middle Triple Peak, which was featured in the 50 classic climbs, and that was sort of like, it was cutting edge, it was sought after. But yeah, we skied in, endured bad weather, climbed it, and then had a little bit of an epic on the way out, and we ran out of food and everything that ... We didn't fall in the river. That was the one thing that didn't happen, the snow bridge held, but it was-
Shelby Stanger:
But when you run out of food and all this stuff happens, you say that so nonchalantly was there fear?
Conrad Anker:
Well, of course.
Shelby Stanger:
Yeah.
Conrad Anker:
Yeah. You're going to go out and run out of food, you're going to have suffer. And what's amazing is the level of strength that humans have and people that study the human mind are like, we only key into this amount of our mind and this amount of our potential. And then that ability to use your mind to take your physical ability to another level, you can be completely fit and ready to go, and then if you're mind is like, "I can't do this, I'm scared," it can drain your physical strength immediately. So trying to find a way that we can see what a little bit of that mental gymnastics that we might be going through that are bound up in anxiety and suspense in the unknown, if we can turn that into something positive, then we're harnessing some of life's energy force. Trying to find those moments. When you can harness that extra mental power that allows your physical self to do things you didn't think were possible, that's what we're all looking to find.
Shelby Stanger:
When we come back. Conrad talks about the role that mentorship plays in his life, what his day-to-day looks like and more.
Conrad Anker is known as one of the greatest American mountaineers of all time after decades of high octane expeditions, Conrad's approach to climbing has changed a lot. He's lost a lot of close friends in the mountains, and he's had several near-death experiences himself. He continues to get out into the elements, but at this stage in his life, his trips are a little different than they used to be.
So how do pick what projects you decide to do now?
Conrad Anker:
First off is that they're safe. So it's a level of risk that I'm willing to go with that they're aesthetic. But yeah, 2016, I was 55, I was on an unclimbed peak in Nepal and I suffered a heart attack, so I've let the big stuff go. So I'm happy to go rock climbing, or ice climbing, or trail running and do simple things and encouraging and helping support the next generation in their pursuits in the vertical realm.
Shelby Stanger:
Did that experience change you pretty dramatically?
Conrad Anker:
Yes. It's pretty humbling. And I mean, I've had near calls with my own mortality, but it's always been a near miss. So the equivalent of say someone running a red light and you just escape and you're like, your body's a wash and endorphins and adrenaline. You're like, "Whoa, I just made it through there. Ahh." You're screaming. It's like a movie or something. And then this time with a heart attack, it was slow and ongoing, and just the immediacy of it and not knowing what it was, but knowing exactly what it was, because you don't train for what are heart attack symptoms. You might recall seeing some of those things, a small poster in your doctor's office, but it wasn't like I knew what it was going to be, but then when it happened, I knew exactly what it was happening.
Shelby Stanger:
Oh, that has to have been scary. Were you able to get out? I mean, you were in the middle of a mountain.
Conrad Anker:
Yeah. I was with David Lama and he's, dear friend passed away, but we repelled down off the climb and then hitchhiked on a helicopter into Katmandu and was able to have an angioplasty performed at the hospital there. So nine hours from onset to when I had the procedure.
Shelby Stanger:
And now your heart works great.
Conrad Anker:
Oh, yeah, more or less. I figure I'm like a U-Haul rental van. It goes 55, so you put your foot on the accelerator, it's still just going to go 55. They have a limiter, so that's how they rent them to you, so you can't go speeding. And so I just have a limiter and I go 55, but the benefit of that is I have more time to enjoy the scenery and listen to music, so I'm happy.
Shelby Stanger:
And it seems like you have more time to mentor and be of service to other people. What role does mentorship play in your life?
Conrad Anker:
Yeah. Well, one way of looking at it is the first 20 years of our life we're sort of under our parents' wing. We learn about school and what we want to do in life. And the next 20 years or next quarter in your life is becoming good at that and doing it. That third part of the life is excelling at it and being the very best. And whether that's being a certified public accountant, or a sailor, or a mountain climber, or a baseball player or anything like that, you do the very best you can. And then in that fourth window you give back. And that's I'm firmly in that point where if I can share experiences of being in the mountains, lessons that I've learned with other people that are coming into it, then we're doing what humans have done to get us to where we are now.
And we have always benefited from those that have come before us, the knowledge that they have, the expertise, and then they handed that on to the next generation, which is us, and that gives us a chance to improve upon it and to add to it. Mentorship doesn't have to be, oh, we meet every Thursday after school and we're going to work on this project, or something like that. It can be as simple as a touchpoint, like an affirmation that you're doing the right thing, just like, hey, wow, you really enjoy playing music or you really enjoy doing cartoons, or to validate that person what they're doing can allow them to go forward with confidence. So setting the stage for good mentorship and then allowing the person who you're working with to discover it on their own, that's like success in the mentorship.
Shelby Stanger:
Conrad spends a lot of time these days mentoring younger athletes. In fact, a lot of athletes that we've had on the show - Ryan Hudson, Stacy Bear, Jimmy Chin - have all worked with Conrad. There's a lot to be learned from a man who has dedicated his life to getting out and adventuring in the mountains. Conrad is probably one of, if not the biggest name in mountaineering, but he's also humble and incredibly approachable. What's your day-to-day? What's a typical day for you?
Conrad Anker:
Well, I have an office in the basement, so I call it shuffling pixels, so moving email around and then communicating with people. And then we had a little bit of a hiatus during COVID, but then traveling and doing events and design meetings. Yesterday, was able to get out climbing and help out with a photo shoot. But yeah, getting outdoors three or four days a week, challenging myself climbing, and I'm not climbing at the level I was 30 years ago, but the enjoyment is still there and still a very important part of it. But yeah, I wish the life of a professional athlete. I could be like, "Well, yeah, I have my overnight muesli with my berries, and then I get my blood work done, and then I talk to my agent and take a private chat over here or there." But it's pretty much like anyone else, that I had to shovel the walk this morning, rake the leaves in the fall, tidy up the apple trees in the summer, but a pretty normal life.
Shelby Stanger:
I think that's why people like you so much. I'm supposed to go on my first ice climbing expedition. It's going to be in New Hampshire. I'm worried I'm going to freeze. I've never been ice climbing in my life. Any advice?
Conrad Anker:
Yeah. So you'll probably hike to the base, you'll be able to warm up as you hike to the base, wear extra long underwear, maybe an extra wool or synthetic vest underneath you so your core is warm. The goal there is to overheat your core so you start shunting heat through your hands and head, so they keep them warm. So if you overheat your core, then you'll move heat out through your extremities. Swing your arms before you start going up on the climb so you get that centrifugal force, you get the blood down to your fingers. Don't over grip, keep your center of gravity close to the wall that you're climbing. Remember that crampons and ice tools are merely knives attached to your body so be careful.
Shelby Stanger:
Because if you kick your leg with a crampon-
Conrad Anker:
They play for keeps.
Shelby Stanger:
Yeah.
Conrad Anker:
Exactly. And that's the beautiful thing about gravity. It's like you can't fake gravity, you can't make your golf score better. I mean, you screw up in climbing, you're dead, and that's what gravity is. It's equal for everyone. There is no rules, there is no judge. It's just there.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay. You've done some serious expeditions that have been near death, some people have died. What is your philosophy on risk and fear?
Conrad Anker:
Ooh, that is a good one. So one is accepting of risk and then putting yourself by your own volition into a risky situation. So once I get three or four body lengths above the ground, you are then in a risky situation and you then communicate with yourself in a different way. You're talking to a very primal part of our brain that goes way back in human evolution. Whereas the front of our brain, we'll be like, "Okay, we can play computer games or we can look at something else," but if it's like, 'I must survive," that's like communicating to the most ancient brainstem, that most ancient part of our mind. Not too many things connect us in that way. But if you want to get to the top of the climb, top of the mountain, that's your own choice, and you have to really focus on doing that and doing it well, and getting to that moment where you have to focus that's one of the many blessings and gifts that experiential outdoor sports provide to us.
Shelby Stanger:
So I kind of just get the sense that you really make an effort to find joy in the every day through adventure. Where did that come from? Where's your philosophy? Am I even right on that? I mean.
Conrad Anker:
Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. So I'm based in optimism. Optimism is a great way of being with people and surrounding yourself with happiness, so that's always a good sign to it. But one of those sayings is like, well, sometimes you can't change the situation, but you can change your outlook, and yeah, life's too short to go through holding a grudge or being angry because it hurts you more than does the other person.
Shelby Stanger:
This is something that makes a lot of sense, but is this something you've learned from years of expeditions and being in risky situations, and losing people, and being in situations that could have been much worse but didn't end up worse?
Conrad Anker:
Yeah. Probably the most humbling experiences I've had in life are losing friends, and that when you go through that and there's non-sequential death, so people die before they're expected to, so our grandparents pass away before our parents do. And so when someone loses their life in the middle of their life and they're doing something which people might see as being frivolous, mountain climbing, that is, then there's a lot of weight that goes with it. But it's a very expensive lesson that is loss of friends, to remind one to be present, to be in the moment, and to treat other people with decency and equanimity. The first time I went through this non-sequential loss-grief type thing, I was in my late twenties, and I didn't understand mortality and humans and how they go through that. And I see that when it happens to people in that age set, it's so heavy and just so emotional.
But yeah, sometimes you just have to sit with it, be out in the woods and let it go over you. But yeah, I'm happiest, I feel most alive, and I rejuvenate when I'm in the mountains, and so the solace of open places and spaces. But yeah, whenever we have challenges, we have to find places that we can let our spirit sort of grow and drowning it in alcohol or drugs it just compounds it and makes it worse on the end. So going outdoors and being reminded of what we live for, to me, that's really the key part to it.
Shelby Stanger:
What advice can you give listeners on how to pursue a wild idea, even if they have doubt or fear?
Conrad Anker:
Well, first step is that one saying is the hardest step of a long journey is to step out your door. So start. Find something that is intriguing, where the out outcome might not be known and go in and try it. And so that's whether it's bicycling a hundred miles in a day, hiking 20 miles in a day, running an ultra-marathon, bouldering at the climbing gym, learning how to tie flies, all these things that you think you could probably do, you can do, and there's people out there, there's knowledge, there's information to help you along to do that. So if you want standard stuff, yeah, turn the television on, watch some sports, eat some processed food and call it good. But if you want to live life, go out there, get cold, get hungry, get scratched up, take those sunrises in, see the sunsets as blessings, and just push yourself a little bit beyond what you think you could do.
Shelby Stanger:
Conrad Anchor, thank you so much for coming on Wild Ideas Worth Living. You've truly lived a wildlife, and I appreciate your kindness and your willingness to share your journey with us. If you want to learn more about Conrad Anchor, check him out on Instagram @conradanchor. That's C-O-N-R-A-D A-N-K-E-R, or go to his website conradanchor.com. There you'll see his motto, which I love, "Be good. Be kind. Be happy." Also, in 2021, Conrad's son, Max Low came out with a film about their family called Torn. You can check it out on Disney Plus and listen to our episode we did with Max last year. We'll put a link in the show notes.
Wild Ideas Worth Living is part of the REI Podcast Network. It's hosted by me, Shelby Stanger, produced by Annie Fasler, Sylvia Thomas, and Sam Peer Nitzberg of Puddle Creative. And our senior producer is Jenny Barber. Our executive producers are Paolo Mottola and Joe Crosby. As always, we appreciate when you follow this show, rate it and review it wherever you listen. And remember, some of the best adventures happen when you follow your wildest ideas.