Ultra runner, Courtney Dauwalter is known as one of the greatest athletes of our time She's also know for running in long basketball shorts, scarfing down pizza and nachos between races, and her mindset when it comes to mastering the "pain cave." This summer, Courtney ran three of the most prestigious ultramarathons in the world and ended up winning every single one. The most impressive part is that she ran them all within 10 weeks.
Ultra runner, Courtney Dauwalter is known as one of the greatest athletes of our time She's also know for running in long basketball shorts, scarfing down pizza and nachos between races, and her mindset when it comes to mastering the "pain cave." This summer, Courtney ran three of the most prestigious ultramarathons in the world and ended up winning every single one. The most impressive part is that she ran them all within 10 weeks.
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Shelby Stanger:
Ultra runner, Courtney Dauwalter is known as one of the greatest athletes of our time. Over the last 10 years, she's become famous for breaking countless records on some of the most challenging ultra-marathon courses. In addition to her ultra running accomplishments, she's also known for running in long basketball shorts, scarfing down pizza and nachos between races, and embracing what she calls intuitive training.
Regardless of how unconventional her techniques might be, Courtney is at the top of her game and she's continuing to push the envelope of what's possible. I'm Shelby Stanger and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living, an REI Co-Op Studio's production. Courtney Dauwalter loves going after wild ideas. She's constantly examining her limits and running right past them.
Courtney Dauwalter:
I am just trying to brainstorm and spitball what ideas sound a little bit too crazy and those are the ones I want to try and go after because it's okay to fall short of goals and aiming for those bigger, crazy ones just helps us push harder and learn more along the way.
Shelby Stanger:
This past summer, Courtney decided to take on a new challenge. She ran three of the most prestigious ultramarathons in the world and ended up winning every single one. The most impressive part is that she ran them all within 10 weeks. Most ultra runners would run three races like this in a year or maybe even six months. To do three in just 10 weeks is unheard of, but that's Courtney's style.
Courtney Daulwalter, welcome to Wild Ideas Worth Living. We are so excited to have you on.
Courtney Dauwalter:
Thank you. I'm so excited to join you.
Shelby Stanger:
I'm excited to maybe one day run with you. I wanted to start with a listener question. We've never done this, but I told people that we might be interviewing you and Abigail Scott wrote in and I thought we'd just start. "What are your favorite nacho toppings?"
Courtney Dauwalter:
Yes. Oh, I can talk nachos or candy all day. Can we do the entire podcast on food, please?
Shelby Stanger:
Yes, we'll get there.
Courtney Dauwalter:
I'm a quantity, so I want it to be a mountain of nachos, layers of cheese in there, and then really anything goes, but I like them spicy. So some jalapenos, some pico de gao, ground beef if I'm going to put some meat on it. Yeah, load it up.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay. You're such a pro. I appreciate you answering this. I want to go back to the beginning. You're Minnesota born and bred. You're so kind. You like a hot dish. You grew up cross country skiing, which is so cool. So how did you get into ultra running?
Courtney Dauwalter:
I had no idea ultra running was a thing when I was growing up. I loved running. I was in a super active family, so we did all sorts of sports and playing outside was just our natural state of being. And then through college I raced cross country skiing in Denver. Still didn't know that ultra running was a thing, but after college I was trying to figure out what my next challenge was going to be that I could try and so I did a road marathon. I was certain it would kill me. I stood on the start line basically texting goodbye to family and friends thinking, "26.2 miles is going to do me in, my legs are going to shatter. There's no way I'll get to that finish line."
And when I did, I wondered immediately what else is out there that sounds too hard? And that led me to the ultra running world where there are many, many options of things you can try that sound too hard.
Shelby Stanger:
So did you train for these first ones or did you just kind of go out and ran?
Courtney Dauwalter:
I loved running every day. So I wasn't calling it training, but I just started my day with an hour run before going to work because I liked how it made me feel. If I started my day with a run, my brain was turned on. So I was doing that every morning and then on weekends I was running maybe a couple of hours, but none of it was like a marathon training plan. I wasn't doing anything different than what I was just doing because I loved running.
Shelby Stanger:
That first ultra you entered, did you finish?
Courtney Dauwalter:
I did finish. So it was a 50K in a park that was near where I was living at the time, and I knew nothing about the sport. I just knew that this was a little bit longer than a marathon. It sounded really scary and that made it the perfect thing to try, but then the vibes during it were so chill and welcoming. It felt like just running with my friends in the woods for the day. Everyone was chatting, joking around. You'd arrive at these aid stations full of all sorts of food options. So I was filling my pockets with jelly beans and carrying on into the woods again, and I loved it. It just felt like something brand new to me, like a new twist on running.
I am so amazed every time I do a new race or complete a big route of what our bodies and brains are capable of. Every time something sounds too hard, I find that if we just believe in ourselves and put in the work and then stay positive through the tough moments, we can get to those finish lines.
Shelby Stanger:
There's something truly special about the running community, and especially the ultra running community. People show up to support each other in ways that we don't often see in competitive sports. This atmosphere is a perfect match for Courtney's approach to running. She's motivated by joy and by her curiosity, and she's always looking for the next challenge to tackle. So you're motivated by joy, but you also have to be motivated to win a little bit?
Courtney Dauwalter:
Yeah. I would say I like to compete. I sign up for these races wanting to get the most out of myself on a day, but the coolest part... There's so many cool parts. One of the cool parts of doing these long races is it doesn't feel like a race against other people, ever for me. I'm not lining up on the start line thinking of beating anybody there. I'm thinking of me against the course, me against my brain, me against my own ability to problem-solve today and playing the game of getting to that 100-mile finish line or 200-mile finish line as efficiently and productively as I can.
And my biggest goal always and measure of success in a race is if I cross a finish line and I know that was absolutely everything that I had on the day. I did all that I could in each of those moments of the race and then whatever the result is is fine with me.
Shelby Stanger:
Yeah, you have a really amazing demeanor. Is this from your parents? Is this from coaches? Is this from brothers?
Courtney Dauwalter:
It's got to be a combination of all of it. I had really fantastic coaches through all of my schooling, all of my racing, and I'm definitely thankful for them teaching me how to push really hard and what it looks like to prepare for a race. But also, all of the coaches I had were huge on working hard and having fun can happen at the same time. We can goof around while doing this really tough workout and that doesn't take away from the work we're putting in, which I am so thankful for because I don't think that that's universally taught.
Shelby Stanger:
Courtney gives herself permission to have fun, but she still works incredibly hard. After all, competing in 100 plus mile races is not easy. Ultra runners regularly climb thousands of vertical feet and run in extreme temperatures. Many professional endurance athletes talk about a mental place they go to when things get tough. Courtney and many other athletes call it the pain cave. It refers to their mental state, when the pain gets so excruciating that there's no space for any other thoughts in their mind. Most people think of pain as a negative thing, but Courtney sees it differently. The pain cave is where she gets to experience how great her potential is.
100 miles, 200 miles is really different than 26.2 miles. And when you're doing these distances, stuff goes wrong and it hurts. It's not all joyful, and you've spoken a lot about this saying called the pain cave in many of your interviews. So just break it down for us. What is the pain cave?
Courtney Dauwalter:
The pain cave for me is the place I go to in my head when it physically feels like I can't take another step. It hurts so bad, there's no way I'll get to that finish line. That's when I switch to my head and I am a very visual person and I actually have this picture of a cave in my brain. And when it gets to that point in the race, which I always hope to be pushing hard enough to get to the cave entrance. When it gets to that point, I imagine grabbing a chisel, putting on a hard hat and going to the very back corners of my pain cave and chiseling away at it to make it bigger.
For me, it feels then like all of that hurting in that moment is productive. It's teaching me how to deal with those hard moments and it's making my capacity for suffering bigger for the next time, which is what I'm trying to do while I'm in this sport is just see what's possible. How hard can we push? How far can we go? What does it look like when our bodies and our brains are all working towards this goal? So the pain cave is what I used to visualize it, but there's so many different terms that people use and for some reason, this one I just latched onto and it's working for me.
Shelby Stanger:
So I'm just really curious, what does it feel like though? Is it that your muscles aren't moving any further, your legs aren't moving any further? Are you sick to your stomach? Are you hallucinating?
Courtney Dauwalter:
Oh man, it's any and all of those things that you named. So for sure, I think almost all of us have probably experienced it. That feeling of, "I can't go anymore. I'm so tired, my body is refusing to keep pushing forward." You don't have to have done 100 miles to experience that point. So it's that. There's also a lot of stomach stuff that comes up when you're running 100 miles. I've for sure had hallucinations that for me look very, very real. I've seen things like a leopard in a hammock, a guy playing a cello. One time the trail was just covered in cats and so I was trying really hard to run while not stepping on any of these cats that were in my way.
But yeah, it's like any of those fatigue symptoms that come in can make us start to think negatively and doubt ourselves of like, "Can I actually do this thing that I'm trying to do?" And if we let the negativity take over, it can whirlpool really quickly. But what I've found is that that doesn't serve us at all in anything, but for sure not in an ultra. And so I'll try and push out those negative thoughts with, one, this image of a pain cave, but then also staying super positive and just repeating something positive to myself over and over to take the space away from the negative thoughts.
Shelby Stanger:
Just like what are some of those things that you say over and over to yourself?
Courtney Dauwalter:
My default mantra is just, "This is fine. It's okay, this is fine, you are fine." But then other ones will pop up in the races depending on what's going on. So this summer I had one where I was just saying, "Be brave, be patient, believe," over and over and over again.
Shelby Stanger:
Like Ted Lasso.
Courtney Dauwalter:
Yeah. Yeah. Total Ted Lasso. And then the latest one, I was racing in September and the mantra that popped into my brain that became useful was I just kept repeating, "Robot, robot, robot," to myself to try and take emotions and feelings out of it and just help my legs keep swinging because they were feeling really tired.
Shelby Stanger:
Courtney's mental game is both fascinating and unique. When we come back we talk more about what it was like to complete the Triple Crown of ultra running, how she approaches her training, and what she does to rest her mind.
Courtney Daulwalter is a legend in the ultra running world. In the summer of 2023, Courtney came up with a huge wild idea that no professional ultra runner had ever done before. She decided to take on the Triple Crown of ultra running. Okay, so the Triple Crown of ultra running is not actually an official term, but it is what people are calling Courtney's incredible accomplishment.
With the help of her crew, including her husband, Kevin, Courtney won three prestigious 100-mile races within 10 weeks. First, she won the Western States 100 near Lake Tahoe in California. She beat the course record by over an hour. Three weeks later, Courtney set another course record when she won the Hardrock 100 and the Mountains of Colorado. Seven weeks after Hardrock, Courtney won UTMB, a 106-mile race in the Alps of France.
Doing 300 plus mile races in 10 weeks is unprecedented, even for the most experienced ultra runners. You just became the first athlete to win the Triple Crown of ultra running in a single season, which is huge. Congratulations.
Courtney Dauwalter:
Thank you.
Shelby Stanger:
So what made you decide to go do this?
Courtney Dauwalter:
I decided to try this because it sounded like the perfect amount of crazy. I am so curious what's possible. And so when I had the opportunity to try Western States and Hardrock only three weeks apart, I was like, "I have to try that. That's so cool. What does the recovery even look like in-between? How do you do these two polar opposite courses in such a short amount of time?" And then when I finished Hardrock, I wasn't sure if I was going to do UTMB or not, but I felt okay after a couple of weeks and then it was like, "Why not try?"
Shelby Stanger:
Okay, so lead us through each race. What did they feel like?
Courtney Dauwalter:
Western States felt like how 100s feel. I was coming off of just some good training and rest and that was my first one. So I wasn't feeling the fatigue of the summer yet, but Hardrock 100, a couple of weeks after it, they yelled, "Go," and we start running and almost immediately, my whole body was just saying no. It was so tired feeling, my legs were feeling heavy and my arms were like, "Swinging is too much work." All of it happened in the first couple of blocks of the race, and I'm thinking in my head, "We still have a hundred miles to go and I'm already feeling this. It's going to be a long day."
And so that whole race was basically just settling into and accepting that feeling of tiredness and being okay with it because finishing was my main goal. So I knew I could get to that finish line eventually if I just kept putting one foot in front of the other.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay. So between Western States and Hardrock, so did you just not do anything between those three weeks?
Courtney Dauwalter:
Three weeks went really fast.
Shelby Stanger:
Yeah.
Courtney Dauwalter:
The first week I did nothing. I sat on the couch and I ate cinnamon toast crunch and pizza. The second week I tried to get moving a little bit, so I was biking a little. I was going for hikes, but I wasn't doing a ton, still eating a lot though. And then the third week was race week, so basically just did a few shakeout jogs and tried to prep all of the gear for it.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay. Then after Hardrock, how did you feel?
Courtney Dauwalter:
I felt pretty terrible after that race.
Shelby Stanger:
I love that you're laughing. It's awful.
Courtney Dauwalter:
Yeah, I finished it and immediately told my husband, Kevin, "Let's not talk about what's next," because we both knew UTMB was on the table, but I was not ready to think of that yet. So for the first 10 days or so, we didn't talk about anything moving forward. It was just enjoying and recovering and spending time with friends and family. And then two weeks after Hardrock, I went out for just a 45-minute shakeout, a little jog around the neighborhood and I still felt pretty bad, but I was like, "I don't feel like a dumpster anymore. I feel like I'm starting to come back a little bit." So I got home and immediately told Kevin, "Let's do it. Let's sign up for this third one because why not?"
Shelby Stanger:
Once Courtney decided to sign up for her third 100-mile race in 10 weeks, it was go time. She booked a ticket to France and started to prepare.
Courtney Dauwalter:
So now I need to get myself ready to race again, and it's a mountain race, but also, I need some running legs. So how do we get these legs and body going again? And one of my main focuses was getting my brain ready to go into that pain cave one more time for me, because sometimes after a race, the most tired part on me will be my brain. My legs will feel good sooner than my head feels ready to push again.
Shelby Stanger:
After doing her best to not think about running for six weeks, Courtney hopped on a plane to France. UTMB is a 106-mile race around Mont Blanc and the French Alps. It's like the World Series of ultra running, with massive crowds in a celebratory atmosphere. The competitors are some of the best ultra runners in the world, but even so, there's a dropout rate of around 40%. Runners have to climb 30,000 feet over mountainous terrain and run through scorching heat and wind sought blizzards. Courtney promised herself that she would stay on her feet for the whole race, and she did. It was a legendary performance.
There had to even a point in Mont Blanc where... You'd just done two huge races, won them, and you weren't fully recovered. So when you got to the pain cave and it started hurting, what mile were you at and what happened?
Courtney Dauwalter:
During UTMB, I got to around mile 60 and during those first 60 miles, it was feeling like a normal a 100-mile effort. It was normal amounts of hard, normal amounts of suffering, but I was like, "We're going to get to this finish line, we can do this." And then I got to mile 60 and it was like the plug got pulled out of the wall and there was nothing left anymore. The gas tank was empty, my legs just refused to keep moving.
So I thought, "Uh oh," at first, "There's still 40 miles left in this race," but then switched over to just, "Robot, robot, robot, keep your legs swinging. They know what to do. You know how to do this. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other." And that's how I did the last 40 miles. I couldn't think farther than a step in front of me and my steps were really short because my quads were blown and was definitely powered on by the crowds that we were running through. There was one section of the course where people came out dressed in costumes. They had signs. There was a guy dressed up as a toothbrush and another as a tube of toothpaste because during these ultras, I love brushing my teeth at aid stations. You're just eating a lot of sugary things and I think that quick little scrub of minty flavor can be refreshing in so many ways.
Shelby Stanger:
And your dentist is psyched like, "Good job."
Courtney Dauwalter:
So there's this toothbrush and toothpaste and there was a huge inflatable piece of pizza. It was this party zone that I ran through, and for sure, I think energy can be passed around when you're running an ultra, but just in general too, if you give good vibes, you will receive them back. And running through that crowd was like a booster of just good energy, this electric feeling, and it helped keep my legs going for... I think I still had 20 miles after running through the costume section.
Shelby Stanger:
20 more miles. So how did you know that you weren't going to get past or that someone wasn't right behind you?
Courtney Dauwalter:
I didn't know that I wasn't going to get past and really assumed that I would get past because I was hurting so bad and it was so hard to keep moving. But also, I was trying my hardest. And so if someone had passed me, I would've cheered the loudest of anyone for them because basically everyone is buckled into their own rollercoaster ride of this 100-mile journey and all of your highs and lows are going to be different. So it's a cool sport in that way. No matter where you are in the field, people are going to chat when you see each other and encourage each other.
Shelby Stanger:
Okay, so after, you finish UTMB, you're in first place. It's got to feel so good, but I'm sure you're in pain. Maybe that's disappearing because you're on so much adrenaline. What happened?
Courtney Dauwalter:
It was really special finishing there because you run a mile through these crowds high-fiving you as you get to town. And then right behind the finish line was Kevin and my parents and one of my brothers and his wife had come out for the race. And to share it all with them was so special for them to experience this type of race and this sport that I love so much and be there at the finish sign meant the world. And then I run for Solomon. So the Solomon team was all there. It was just a really special team celebration at the end.
Shelby Stanger:
Courtney won the race by over an hour, crossing the finish line after 23 hours and 29 minutes. The ultra community went wild. She was profiled in the New York Times, Runner's World, Trail Runner's Magazine and on CNN. This win made fans and competitors even more curious about the recipe for Courtney's secret sauce. She boils it down to making it through the pain cave and embracing intuitive training.
I am just curious, what's your process? You seem to be really intuitive.
Courtney Dauwalter:
Yeah, that's exactly it. I have not had a coach since I was racing in college, and it was just like a natural thing that happened where I felt like it was a fun puzzle to play around with. I have all of this previous knowledge from these amazing coaches that I grew up with, and now I get to just play around with the pieces and see what I like, what I don't like, what I want to add, what I want to take out and make mistakes along the way. I think that's pretty fun.
But yeah, I don't have a plan and every day I wake up, I drink some coffee, eat a little bit, and then I'll just do a systems check of where's my body at, where's my brain at and where are my emotions at? To help me figure out how hard to push the gas pedal down for that day of training. A lot of times I head out the door with an idea after that systems check, but even when I'm out on my run, things can change if I'm getting some different feedback than I had originally thought, or if my feet just take a different turn than I was planning on, then I just roll with that. So the intuitive way of training for me works perfectly with just how I tick and how my schedule is.
Shelby Stanger:
You drink your coffee, you have some food, and then you hit the trails. How long are you gone?
Courtney Dauwalter:
My first run of the day might be anywhere from one to four or five hours, probably at the top end of that. And then some days I'll go for a second one in the afternoon, that's an hour or 45 minutes. I always start my day with an activation routine. It's like 30 to 40 minutes of core, glutes, hips, so a lot of stuff with those stretchy bands. A lot of basic core work, and I started doing that in 2019 after I had a hip injury. That's been super helpful I think, in just basically focusing on the trunk and keeping the trunk as strong as possible so that as you fatigue, you're not getting as floppy.
Shelby Stanger:
Yeah. And then when you get floppy, that's when you injure your knees and everything else. That makes sense.
Courtney Dauwalter:
Yeah. You start compensating in different ways that overwork muscles that aren't made to work that hard.
Shelby Stanger:
What about rest days? How do you make sure you get those in?
Courtney Dauwalter:
I don't have a scheduled rest day every week, and often I'll go a couple of weeks between rest days, but basically when the systems check happens when I'm drinking coffee, it'll be a bunch of signals just saying, "Pump the brakes here for a minute. You're tired, you need a full on rest day." And then I go all in on rest so I don't cross train. That's not a rest day to me. If I'm traveling, that's not a rest day to me. It is a rest day if I am fully chilled out at home, sweatpants, Netflix, eating whatever I find in the fridge and not moving very much at all, that's a rest day to me.
Shelby Stanger:
There's so many principles behind Courtney's success that are simple yet wise. It's all about balancing working hard, having fun, embracing the pain cave and tapping into joy. Courtney Dauwalter, you are a legend. Thank you so much for coming on Wild Ideas Worth Living. We've been looking forward to interviewing you for years. You were so fun to chat with and I really appreciate you making the time to come on the show.
If you want to learn more about Courtney Dauwalter, check out her Instagram, @courtneydauwalter. That's C-O-U-R-T-N-E-Y-D-A-U-W-A-L-T-E-R. Before we wrap up, I want to share the answer to a burning question that I had for Courtney. Long shorts. Let's talk about this. Everybody else is wearing compression shorts. You are wearing basketball shorts.
Courtney Dauwalter:
Yeah. Why not? Long shorts have always been my preferred attire. Growing up, I was always in soccer shorts or basketball shorts, and so when I started running ultras, I didn't see a reason to switch out of it. I think comfort is key when you're doing hard things and for me, comfort is in 11-inch inseams and a baggy fit.
Shelby Stanger:
And they don't chafe you? The inseam would crush me.
Courtney Dauwalter:
No, they don't chafe. We should get you in a pair and you can see how lightweight they are, how comfortable it feels.
Shelby Stanger:
I will. I will try them. I'm curious. I'm really curious. Wild Ideas Worth Living is part of the REI Podcast Network. It's hosted by me, Shelby Stanger, produced by Annie Fassler, Sylvia Thomas and Sam Peers Nitzberg of Puddle Creative, and our senior producer is Jenny Barber. Our executive producers are Paolo Mottola and Joe Crosby. As always, we love it when you fall the show, rate it and write a review wherever you listen. And remember, some of the best adventures happen when you follow your wildest ideas.